Radio Operator's Gun on B-17

[Butcher]

That's what i was thinking-- they still needed someone to keep communications going, right?

You don't generally need a radio operator when you are under attack, hence why it was an ineffective gun position.

When things are clear, then yes the radio operator listened for course changes etc.

[AirLynx]

This is from North Star Gallery:


The B-17G entered service with the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces in late 1943. Camouflage paint was deleted from production B-17Gs starting in January of 1944. B-17Gs were delivered in natural metal finish and the Cheyenne tail gun modifications were also incorporated. These tail gun mountings also had a reflector gunsight instead of the previous ring and bead. With this installation, these B-17Gs were five inches shorter than the earlier versions. On later production versions, it was necessary to stagger the waist gun positions so that the two gunners would not get in each other's way. On the last production batches the radio compartment gun was not installed.

The link to the page:
http://northstargallery.com/aircraft/b17/about.htm

First, I don't see anything about one of the crewmen being removed.
Second, in the last sentance, it says that the radio gun wasn't removed until the last production batches.
Third, it says that later production versions had the staggered waist guns and the last models had the radio gun removed; implying that the staggered waist guns came before the removal of the gun.

[Guppy35]

How many pictures of 9 man B17 crews do you want me to post before you believe me?

Not like I just started researching this stuff yesterday ya know

Just opened the wartime 447th History on my shelf.  14 crew pics of 9 men crews in the first few pages I looked at.  You want to see em?

[phatzo]

How many pictures of 9 man B17 crews do you want me to post before you believe me?

Not like I just started researching this stuff yesterday ya know

Put your hands in the air and back away from the squeekers.

[PFactorDave]

You want to see em?

Well I would...  But for a completely different reason.  I find photos like these to be awe inspiring.  Seeing the guys, many of them looking so young.  Knowing what they lived through, but not really ever knowing it, if you get my meaning.

If you have them scanned, I would love to see them.  But don't trouble yourself if you don't already have them scanned.   

[AirLynx]

How many pictures of 9 man B17 crews do you want me to post before you believe me?

Here is a link to the B-17G specifications. The crew is nine men, but the radio operator is one of them.
http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b17.html

I believe that the missing crew member is the navigator.

[Krusty]

That was my understanding, too. I thought they did away with the guy in the nose.

The radio operator actually does a lot, I thought. Keeps planes in formation, keeps them on target, radio direction finding equipment would be in here as well, and so forth. They removed the gun, but not the person, was what I recall.

[Butcher]

I just looked through a few dozen documents, I see some B-17G's retained the Radio Gunner, however the majority do not.

After reviewing as much as I could, Twice I ran across this:

Thirteen .50in calibre guns- two each in chin, upper, ball and tail turrets, one each in nose cheek positions and waist windows. Also a single gun in the radio compartment, deleted during August 1944 by combat units and later from production a/c.

I see evidence of this as July/August built aircraft have the Radio gun deleted, even straight out of the factory.

I hope this can clarify.

[Krusty]

That wasn't the question anymore Butcher

We know that gun was gone. Which crew member did they remove?

[SectorNine50]

They probably got rid of one of the waist gunners.  The radio man would be on radios until it got hot, then would run to the waist gun.  Once everything was clear, he'd switch back to the radios.

[tmetal]

They probably got rid of one of the waist gunners.  The radio man would be on radios until it got hot, then would run to the waist gun.  Once everything was clear, he'd switch back to the radios.

This seems the most probable, because even when the radio gun was installed the radioman was on the gun during attacks; so why not just make his new "battle station" one of the waist guns?

[Guppy35]

Am I talking to myself here?

<Smacks everyone for not paying attention>

I never said they removed the radio operator.  They removed the gun.  The Radio op if needed would operate one of the waist guns.  NOW PAY ATTENTION!

There are two ways at least that it was done removing a crew member.

One was to remove one of the gunners generally one of the waist gunners. Either the single waist gunner operated both guns if things weren't too hot, or the radio op would operate one of them if things were hot.

The other was to remove the bombardier and replace him with one of the gunners, who was then known as the "Toggalier".  This was even done on some 10 man crews as the bombardier became unnecessary unless flying in the pathfinder or lead planes.  The rest of the bombers dropped when the lead birds dropped so it wasn't necessary to have a highly trained bombardier in the nose.  They just needed someone to push the button at the same time and to man the nose guns.

They did not remove navigators as they were more vital to the crew should they have to leave formation due to damage etc.  A well trained navigator was far more valuable at that point then a well trained bombardier.

Any questions?

Now let's review what we've learned so far.  Below is a typical 10 man B17F crew.  Note 4 officers, 6 enlisted men.  Officers were Pilot, Co-pilot, Nav and Bombardier.  Gunners were enlisted men, including the radio operator.  We can deduce from this photo that they had a full crew including a radio operator who no doubt had the radio room gun on the F model.



Now lets return to our original photo of a 9 man crew.  What do we see?  4 officers, 5 enlisted men.  What can we deduce?  They are short a gunner and still have both a bombardier and navigator.  This would then suggest that there is no radio room gun.  As for the folks mentioning when the gun was removed during production, please keep in mind that is not an indicator of when they started removing the gun in the field.

Any questions?

[Guppy35]

2 more 9 man crews, again with 4 officers so a bombardier and Nav.  Only 5 enlisted gunners.

[DaCoon]

Looks pretty crystal to me.   Awesome pics btw     

[Raptor05121]

Kinda bone chilling actually. We all think its so fun, especially to be able to get to fly a B-17 but for them I can't imagine how many of them begged to get out of that silver coffin. Of those pictures posted, there has to be a few men who died in a very horrible way.

<S> to all our lost servicemen.