More cracks in scarebus wings

[VonMessa]

And sheep will continue to follow sheep right off the cliff....most people have no clue as to the events or technology associated with air travel. It's just like a bus ride to them. They just get in line, get on, and go. Not much thinking involved.

...and then there are others that prefer to build their own

[PR3D4TOR]

It is just like a bus ride. Little or no thinking should be, or indeed is, necessary. People who only travel in one make or the other are just being silly. Statistically there is little to choose between Boeing and Airbus both in safety and economy. Most airline purchasing decisions today are decided by other factors like fleet commonality and maintenance availability.

[VonMessa]

Pretty snazzy now that the Jeppesen private pilot kit books talk about heavy aircraft aeronautical engineering.

I just did some Wiki-Math and the A380s wing loading at Max Takeoff Weight is actually less than but very close to the 747-400.  It's about twice as much as a Lear 45 and roughly 10x as a 172.  It's not just the weight that matters, it's how it's distributed and how it's attached.

Indeed.

Awesome Private Pilot book.  A very kind member of this community sent me one last year.  It is the best I have seen so far.

[Shuffler]

“Critical” has a different meaning in engineering terms. Engineers design redundancies in structures for this exact reason. There’s a whole list of parts on an airplane that the FAA will let you take off without, or at least without them being functional. Airliners are massively over-engineered. Twin jets have to be able to take off, land, and if they’re ETOPS fly for a hell of a long time on one engine. So arguably the second engine isn't even “critical”… although I’m not seriously suggesting that.
  
The Aviation Week article says: “Each wing has around 2,000 L-shaped brackets (30-40 per rib, with 60 ribs per wing), so the failure of one bracket is not seen as a safety issue.” These are the parts that distribute the aerodynamic loads from the wing skin to the rib/spar assembly. Essentially they’re secondary load bearing structure. If you have enough of them fail, you could potentially lose a wing skin section but the probability of that is exceedingly low owing to the shear number of brackets. I wouldn't start worrying till you hear stories of cracked wing spars or other primary structure.

Oh Lord... don't talk about Engineers.

If people saw some of the "engineered" drawing sent to us marked "Approved For Construction", they would be afraid to drive across a bridge.  lol

[VonMessa]

Oh Lord... don't talk about Engineers.

If people saw some of the "engineered" drawing sent to us marked "Approved For Construction", tehy would be afraid to drive across a bridge.  lol

I guess that is the reason for having "as built" drawings as well?

 

[Shuffler]

I guess that is the reason for having "as built" drawings as well?

 

..
Whole different requirement. I've seen many so called engineered drawings that were improper builds.

As built drawings are to cover expansion/contraction of metals when welded. We just recently shipped a tool table for an offshore floating rig. Sixty-eight(68) tons.... with plate from 1.5 inches to 4 inches thick. Nothing varied over 3/32. That was not because of engineering. That was because of forethought put into the build. The engineers didn't even consider joint design.

Lucky for those of us around that not all engineers are so poor. There are a few good ones, many bad ones. Really about the same can be said for fab and machine shops too. lol

[VonMessa]

..
Whole different requirement. I've seen many so called engineered drawings that were improper builds.

As built drawings are to cover expansion/contraction of metals when welded. We just recently shipped a tool table for an offshore floating rig. Sixty-eight(68) tons.... with plate from 1.5 inches to 4 inches thick. Nothing varied over 3/32. That was not because of engineering. That was because of forethought put into the build. The engineers didn't even consider joint design.

Lucky for those of us around that not all engineers are so poor. There are a few good ones, many bad ones. Really about the same can be said for fab and machine shops too. lol

Since when?

As-built drawings are made either after or during construction. When it's after construction, accurate data is collocted to reconstruct the drawings. When it's during construction, the design drawings are redmarked for editing.  Hence the name "as built", because it documents the structures dimensions, etc, AS they were built, as opposed to how they were drawn to take into account anything the construction crew runs across that prevents them from building "as drawn" such as buried conduit, etc that the engineers never took into account or could not have know about.

Joint design is usually drawn and engineered by steel detailers.

[Shuffler]

Since when?

As-built drawings are made either after or during construction. When it's after construction, accurate data is collocted to reconstruct the drawings. When it's during construction, the design drawings are redmarked for editing.  Hence the name "as built", because it documents the structures dimensions, etc, AS they were built, as opposed to how they were drawn to take into account anything the construction crew runs across that prevents them from building "as drawn" such as buried conduit, etc that the engineers never took into account or could not have know about.

Joint design is usually drawn and engineered by steel detailers.

We go over the drawings and usually point out issues before the build even starts. Years past, in our business, you'd have people in the shop who have experience go into engineering... that is usually not the case anymore. You get kids going to college who never built anything. They get a stamp and call themselves engineers.


Definitely not the only professional group to suffer from the same issue.

[VonMessa]

We go over the drawings and usually point out issues before the build even starts. Years past, in our business, you'd have people in the shop who have experience go into engineering... that is usually not the case anymore. You get kids going to college who never built anything. They get a stamp and call themselves engineers.


Definitely not the only professional group to suffer from the same issue.

This is not new 

[dedalos]

It is the titanic of the skies IMO

Just say it was not made in the US and get it over with 

[Shuffler]

Just say it was not made in the US and get it over with 

The ship laying on it's side over there is larger than the titanic.

[SmokinLoon]

My ALUMINUM airplane is 46 years old showing no signs of its age.

Not that you can see, anyways.      

When you have an advanced aeronautical engineering degree then perhaps you can comment further.  Until then, all you say regarding the matter is an opinion.  Remember that. 

[Shuffler]

Not that you can see, anyways.      

When you have an advanced aeronautical engineering degree then perhaps you can comment further.  Until then, all you say regarding the matter is an opinion.  Remember that. 

When you have an advanced aeronautical engineering degree then  you can say you have an advanced aeronautical engineering degree. Are you any more knowledgeable than an individual that works on planes all the time. Sadly chances are no.

[Zeagle]

It is just like a bus ride. Little or no thinking should be, or indeed is, necessary. People who only travel in one make or the other are just being silly. Statistically there is little to choose between Boeing and Airbus both in safety and economy. Most airline purchasing decisions today are decided by other factors like fleet commonality and maintenance availability.

I could argue the point about the bus ride all day.

As far as little or no thinking necessary, I disagree as well. People don't care because they don't know any better. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

As far as airline safety statistics go, if you look at it on a PER-TRIP basis, it is more safe than driving. Granted. I will concede that.
However, if you look at it on a PASSENGER-MILE basis, it is many times more dangerous than driving. It's all in how you look at the numbers. And since I am only one passenger, I go with the latter statistics.

The airlines' decisions are based on money. If you think it's based on something else, have another glass of cool-aid.

[Shuffler]

... and here I thought it was more dangerous driving because a plane could fall on your head.