Taurus 709 Slim models

[2ADoc]

So here is the problem I have.  A friend has bought a Taurus 709 Slim, when he shoots it the first three rounds hit close to dead on, then after that they go wild.  I thought he was just a bad shot, he is from Canada, and doesn't get to play with pistols much.  The first auto he bought, bit him bad, he double stacked his hands too high and the slide ran back and cut the top of his thumb knuckle, almost to the bone.  So to show that it wasn't the pistol I took it, my first three rounds hit dead on, and then they went wild.  I am no slouch with a pistol, I shoot around 200 rounds a month.  I think that it has something to do with the new, "floating", barrel design that is begining to get popular.  What I mean is when the slide comes back the barrel moves, instead of being rigidly mounted to the chamber.  Does anyone have one of these, and are they having the same problem.  Just so all the shooters know, I did bench rest the gun, and it was doing the same thing, so it want me.  I shoot both wheel guns and autos, and haven't had this problem before.  So just asking for some ideas.  I think it has something to do with the way the barrel is mounted, and expended powder getting in the barrel seat, but I am not sure.  This is why I carry a wheel gun for my personal protection. 

[zippo]

So here is the problem I have.  A friend has bought a Taurus 709 Slim, when he shoots it the first three rounds hit close to dead on, then after that they go wild.  I thought he was just a bad shot, he is from Canada, and doesn't get to play with pistols much.  The first auto he bought, bit him bad, he double stacked his hands too high and the slide ran back and cut the top of his thumb knuckle, almost to the bone.  So to show that it wasn't the pistol I took it, my first three rounds hit dead on, and then they went wild.  I am no slouch with a pistol, I shoot around 200 rounds a month.  I think that it has something to do with the new, "floating", barrel design that is begining to get popular.  What I mean is when the slide comes back the barrel moves, instead of being rigidly mounted to the chamber.  Does anyone have one of these, and are they having the same problem.  Just so all the shooters know, I did bench rest the gun, and it was doing the same thing, so it want me.  I shoot both wheel guns and autos, and haven't had this problem before.  So just asking for some ideas.  I think it has something to do with the way the barrel is mounted, and expended powder getting in the barrel seat, but I am not sure.  This is why I carry a wheel gun for my personal protection. 

  By 'floating barrel', do you mean something like a Colt 1911?   Some of them are very accurate and consistent     (not a big fan myself).  As far as the unburned powder getting in the barrel seat, it shouldn't fire if it wasn't going back into battery.  Maybe heating up issue?

[dedalos]

This is why I carry a wheel gun for my personal protection. 

We understand.  You carry a wheel gun because of something you have never seen, heard of, or experienced ever before    J/K

[DaCoon]

I have a Beretta PX4 storm full size. It has a rolling barrel system where the barrel makes about a 1/4 turn as the gun cycles.  It reduces the amount of felt recoil.  At 20 -25 ft I can put 50 rds in the X ring.  Does the Taurus barrel angle up as it cycles?  I have noticed that when I shoot guns with that type of system (i.e. Glock etc.) the first few rds are spot on but after they start to spread out.  A friend who works at the local range believes that I may be getting complacent after those first couple and am getting "sloppy" with my grip, stance, etc.  Maybe something to look at.     

[2ADoc]

When I say, powder getting into the seat, I am not talking a bunch of it, I mean one or two grains packing in on one side of the barrel is not seated evenly. 

Yea Dacoon as the slide cycles, the barrel moves up.  I can't see two people getting complacent, especially since I even bench rested and took my time to get thru the 7 rounds.  At first that is what I thought, so I went to the bench and shot.  To top it off they never go wild in the same direction.

[SmokinLoon]

First off, the Taurus 709 used the very tried and true barrel lock up system designed by John Browning over 100 years ago and can be found in the likes of 1911's, Browning Hi-Powers, S&W's, Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, etc etc.  It certainly is NOT new and is the most popular, simple, and venerable type of auto-loading handgun action available.  So in short, the problem is NOT the "new floating barrel" style.    

If you can shoot the first 3 round at point of aim, then the next three are "all over", then I'm confident when I say the issue is the YOU, the shooter.    The is especially true if it happens multiple times.  You are probably anticipating recoil and squeezing the grip just prior to firing and in turn moving the point of aim left.  If you are gittin' all wussy when your fire and get a limp wrist the shots will go more right.  When you grip the pistol with both hands, make sure your stong hand (hand first on gun) us using about %40 of the grip strength and your support hand is using about a %60 grip (yes, your outside hand will have a tighter grip than your inside hand).  Slowly but surely squeeze the trigger.  Rinse and repeat.  People can be very surprised that until they truly fire thousands and thousands of rounds through a particular firearm (or class of firearms) they revert back to bad habits.  

[PR3D4TOR]

The 1911 has a hinged barrel system, while the Glock has a floating barrel. Neither system should affect accuracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIckvqR-e_A

[PFactorDave]

I wouldn't let the floating barrel concern you.

If you believe or suspect that it may be the shooter, try this...  Fire the first three rounds, then hand it to your buddy and have him fire three. 

A quick search and I find mention that the 709 doesn't seem to like Winchester White Box ammo.

One word of caution...  These new small autos that have been hitting the market in the last few years tend to wear their springs out very very quickly.  Some pistols even recommend replacing the main spring after as few as 1 thousand rounds.  Probably not related to this problem, but something to be aware.  These ultra small autos don't make good target pistols, they are designed for concealment and defense.

[DaCoon]

When I say, powder getting into the seat, I am not talking a bunch of it, I mean one or two grains packing in on one side of the barrel is not seated evenly. 

Yea Dacoon as the slide cycles, the barrel moves up.  I can't see two people getting complacent, especially since I even bench rested and took my time to get thru the 7 rounds.  At first that is what I thought, so I went to the bench and shot.  To top it off they never go wild in the same direction.

Dave beat me to it, but I was gonna say try changing ammo mfr.  In my Beretta .40 Remington ammo seems to burn cleaner than the Winchester white box.  Seems like I have less residue when I clean it.   I carry Winchester Supreme Elite for protection.  That's a round that I stay pretty true to my POA with, but they cost too much to go target shooting.

[Babalonian]

So here is the problem I have.  A friend has bought a Taurus 709 Slim, when he shoots it the first three rounds hit close to dead on, then after that they go wild.  I thought he was just a bad shot, he is from Canada, and doesn't get to play with pistols much.  The first auto he bought, bit him bad, he double stacked his hands too high and the slide ran back and cut the top of his thumb knuckle, almost to the bone.  So to show that it wasn't the pistol I took it, my first three rounds hit dead on, and then they went wild.  I am no slouch with a pistol, I shoot around 200 rounds a month.  I think that it has something to do with the new, "floating", barrel design that is begining to get popular.  What I mean is when the slide comes back the barrel moves, instead of being rigidly mounted to the chamber.  Does anyone have one of these, and are they having the same problem.  Just so all the shooters know, I did bench rest the gun, and it was doing the same thing, so it want me.  I shoot both wheel guns and autos, and haven't had this problem before.  So just asking for some ideas.  I think it has something to do with the way the barrel is mounted, and expended powder getting in the barrel seat, but I am not sure.  This is why I carry a wheel gun for my personal protection. 

What an interesting issue, could be a number of things.  What are "the first three shots" always?  Are they the first three shots in a fresh reloaded magazine, first three shots after letting the gun rest/cool for 10-15 minutes at least, first three shots after a thorough barrel cleaning, first three shots after a thorough action cleaning, etc. etc..  Try shooting with half-loaded magazines, could be something weird/screwy there.  Could be a bad barrel, either defective in material or manufacturing process, expanding too much after three shots.  Might be the ammo - the load is too heavy or powder burns too hot/dirty.  Be safe, but a problem like this is a bunch of fun to try and really figure out.  Since it's you and your friend involved though, it's a good idea to switch off every three (or couple) rounds, it doesn't hurt to make sure it's not the shooter(s).

[Jayhawk]

My girlfriend has one of those.  I can't say I've noticed a problem similar to yours, though I do find the gun hard to shoot.  She loves the gun because it fits her hand perfectly, but I hate the grips even with my medium sized hand.  It feels like I'm too low on the gun, even compared to smaller guns like my Kahr PM40.  I haven't spent a ton of time on it, if I go out shooting Saturday I may see if I can replicate the issue.

Here's a picture of me shooting it, you can tell my hand just looks awkward.

 

[Gman]

Your grip needs a bit of tweaking, and that will help you out immeasurably.  Your stance is really very good, you are leaning forward into your shots at a good angle, and you have your feet a good distance apart, and you aren't blading toward the target.  Push your arms ahead just a little bit more and fix that grip up a little, and you'll be pro'd out.

Your dominant (right in your case) hand is placed nice and high and the grip, and that's correct, a good start.  However your right thumb is FAR too low and it needs to be pointing towards the target down the axis of the pistol, not towards the ground.  This will also give space for your support hand (left) to do a couple of things.  First, it'll be able to move up higher, as it is far to low at the moment, and it is allowing a lot of the recoil energy to leak out the left side of your pistol, instead of straight back into your grip.  The left pad of your hand below your left thumb as well as the entire part of the left thumb should have as much contact as possible on the pistol, with the right thumb overlapping the top of the left one, while both are pointing straight ahead as much as possible with your hand size.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363

This is a decent enough video to give you the idea, although not my personal favorite way of doing things, it'll help you out quite a bit.  No matter how small/big/grip size/whatever a pistol is, you can apply the "master" grip to it usually and you will get much better results.  I have a Seecamp and a Glock26 as my backups, and they are as small or smaller than the Khar (which is a great pistol IMO) and I always use the same grip on both of them for two handed shooting.






These are a couple of the best handgun shooters in the world showing how it should be done.


Good luck and keep shooting.

[morfiend]

Your grip needs a bit of tweaking, and that will help you out immeasurably.  Your stance is really very good, you are leaning forward into your shots at a good angle, and you have your feet a good distance apart, and you aren't blading toward the target.  Push your arms ahead just a little bit more and fix that grip up a little, and you'll be pro'd out.

Your dominant (right in your case) hand is placed nice and high and the grip, and that's correct, a good start.  However your right thumb is FAR too low and it needs to be pointing towards the target down the axis of the pistol, not towards the ground.  This will also give space for your support hand (left) to do a couple of things.  First, it'll be able to move up higher, as it is far to low at the moment, and it is allowing a lot of the recoil energy to leak out the left side of your pistol, instead of straight back into your grip.  The left pad of your hand below your left thumb as well as the entire part of the left thumb should have as much contact as possible on the pistol, with the right thumb overlapping the top of the left one, while both are pointing straight ahead as much as possible with your hand size.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363

This is a decent enough video to give you the idea, although not my personal favorite way of doing things, it'll help you out quite a bit.  No matter how small/big/grip size/whatever a pistol is, you can apply the "master" grip to it usually and you will get much better results.  I have a Seecamp and a Glock26 as my backups, and they are as small or smaller than the Khar (which is a great pistol IMO) and I always use the same grip on both of them for two handed shooting.
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These are a couple of the best handgun shooters in the world showing how it should be done.


Good luck and keep shooting.

  Hey Doc,not bad for another guy from Canada...eh!    Some of us Canuks know how to shoot,might check who holds the record for longest killshot.

    However you are correct we dont get to use handguns much,Gman has found a way around our system.  If you cant beat'em join'em.....


       If I ever make my way out west I'll be sure to look you up Gman,maybe get a lesson or 2.




     

[Maverick]

It may sound silly but try a different magazine and see if it does the same thing. It may be a mag issue causing a bobble in feeding after the first 3 rounds.

[Jayhawk]

Okay doc, I'm ready to try out a couple different types of ammo tomorrow, I'll let you know what I find.



Gman, I appreciate the tips.  Like I said, I have had trouble getting my grip on that Taurus.   I couldn't find a good one of me with my glock, but here's one of my Kahr PM40.