Author Topic: Barefoot Gen  (Read 2112 times)

Offline Penguin

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2012, 12:19:17 PM »
We nuked them in order to avoid an invasion that would have cost at least 1,000,000 Allied casualties. And God only knows how many Japanese ones. Its that simple! We had warned the Military Govt. of japan they faced total destruction at home and they still refused to give up, even after the firebombing of Tokyo. Which was far worse then either atomic bomb attack.
 Good so far.
 More the worldwide depression then reparations. Germany borrowed a ton of $$, mostly from America in the '20s, that it used for rebuilding NOT reparations. But I agree the seeds of WW2 were planted after WW1.
 He was elected by PEOPLE! As in VOTERS! And even then by only about 1/3 of those.
 While Im sure the German citizenry were afraid of their Govt. they didnt really care about the jews or other "undesireables". While they were winning most bought Hitlers world vision lock,stock, and barrel.
 Negative. The German military was a superbly disciplined and effective fighting force. Until the very end they never gave up and German citizens, if anything, worked harder for the war effort even after they knew they faced losing the war.
 You really think you can annihilate all those millions of people, in a systematic/Industrial campaign, and the citizens didnt know? All the Germans that settled in Poland/occupied territorys, all the soldiers going on leave, the letters home? The huge bureaucracy involved? Hundreds of thousands involved or observing? And you think the German citizens didnt know?

They werent "duped' at all. Racism was rampant in Europe at the time. Most of all in Germany. Thats why the Germans got so much support from so many of the countries they invaded. France, the baltics, Hungary, Poland, even the freaking Vatican! BTW Hats off to the brave people of the Netherlands, Norway, Finland, Sweden...ect who protected their Jews. I dont think the Leaders/citizens of those countries had any illusions what "resettlement" meant.

The options were invade (millions of casualties), nuke (tens of thousands of casualties), or blockade (hundreds of casualties).  You've created a false dichotomy.  The decision to nuke a population center was made before the Trinity test, and when the destructive power of the bomb itself shocked Oppenheimer (head of the Manhattan project) so much that he declared, "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds".  However, it was too late, and the bombings proceeded as scheduled.

Hitler was elected by the members of the Reichstag, not the German people.  Here is another well-cited Wikipedia article to set you straight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_rise_to_power  Though the German people elected the Reichstag, they had no control over who those members chose to elect.  Also, the Nazi party got around 9-13% of the votes.  That's a minority if I've ever seen one.

Anti-semitism was still around, sure.  The Nazi party turned into a racial issue, though, because they wanted to kill even more people (slavs, etc.).  You're confusing what came before Hitler's rise to power with what came after.  The Holocaust itself was rather easy to hide because the death camps were out in the sticks, and the amount of fear circulating Germany was huge.  I think you have underestimated the terror that one feels while living under such a regime.  Dissenters risked death, or worse.  Furthermore, no-one ever told anyone where the Jews, Poles, Russians, etc., were going.  The government answered only to itself.

Racism in Academia?  I'd rather not get into that.

Be careful using broad personal pronouns like that.  It quickly confuses issues.  The civilian populations of Germany and Japan did not go on killing sprees.  Their militaries did.  As I proved above, neither population of civilians could have prevented it or stopped it, respectively.  The civilian population of the United States did not treat the German people with respect, the US military did (in the sense that the US military actually did the actions).  You mentioned social and cultural traits.  Remember that especially in Japan, the government had quite a bit of say in culture.  The Japanese people did not just decide to worship the Emperor; they were taught to do so from the day that they were born.  However, the culture of Japan and the culture of the US is, and was, different.  They went by different (not inferior) social norms.  For instance, at least in the 40's, apologizing for wrongdoing, even war crimes, was seen as of the utmost importance.  We might think of it as ridiculous, but they probably looked at our business suits the same way for a long time.

The key is to see it from their point of view, too.  Ethnocentrism is a dangerous thing.

-Penguin

Offline Raphael

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2012, 03:02:43 PM »
I hardly think that a statement "they deserved to be nuked" is a lead of a smart conversation. it is not at all and coombz was way on target... if you watch the ink the places explored there are of superation and stuff, you follow a lil boy on this survival task, and that is all the movie shows.

anyway, the failure we have here is people blaming an entire people due to the actions of the rich, dominant percentage, did the some soldiers do horrible things, some. did the commandants order terrible things, yep, did the government approve terrible decisions? yes. that is true for all countries in all wars, they ALL have done the same thing. and it is NOT what the point of the movie is.

the movie is focused on what a kid did when put in that scenario, how do deal with losing the family, how to treat others in that situation (see the rich brother situation) and mainly the superation, it showed the bad things also that people do on that situation as you see in the chaos people acting like crazy in order to survive (which is natural) in any way... that is the focus. it is NOT to point out who "deserved" to be killed. those were civilians, poor.

anti americans say the US people deserved the 9/11. do you think they are smart? i bet you don't, neither do I.
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Offline Rich52

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2012, 05:40:49 PM »
Quote
The options were invade (millions of casualties), nuke (tens of thousands of casualties), or blockade (hundreds of casualties).  You've created a false dichotomy.  The decision to nuke a population center was made before the Trinity test, and when the destructive power of the bomb itself shocked Oppenheimer (head of the Manhattan project) so much that he declared, "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds".  However, it was too late, and the bombings proceeded as scheduled.

You cant "blockade" a country you had already been blockading after youv already destroyed their navy and commercial shipping. At the time Japan was importing no meaningful foodstuffs or industrial materials. Heck they even had to use their submarines to try and sneak rice into the few island garrisons they had left. They had a population ready to attack with pitchforks and were already only eating what they could grow. A blockade was not an option cause one was already in place.

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Though the German people elected the Reichstag, they had no control over who those members chose to elect.  Also, the Nazi party got around 9-13% of the votes.  That's a minority if I've ever seen one.
Sounds like another Democratic system Ive heard of ;) BTW check your sources, in 1932 they recieved about 33%, 2nd only to Von Hindenburg, and then later in the year almost 38%, "popular vote in a Parlimentary election not reichstag votes". These votes are what gave Hitlers party all those Reichstag seats.The one who actually appointed Hitler chancellor was Von Hindenburg. The President.

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I think you have underestimated the terror that one feels while living under such a regime.  Dissenters risked death, or worse.  Furthermore, no-one ever told anyone where the Jews, Poles, Russians, etc., were going.  The government answered only to itself.
LOL, well I lived in Turkey under martial Law, a country that lined up 1 milion Armenians and shot them before WW1. I think your overestimating my underestimating.

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Be careful using broad personal pronouns like that.  It quickly confuses issues.  The civilian populations of Germany and Japan did not go on killing sprees.  Their militaries did.  As I proved above, neither population of civilians could have prevented it or stopped it, respectively.  The civilian population of the United States did not treat the German people with respect, the US military did (in the sense that the US military actually did the actions).  You mentioned social and cultural traits.  Remember that especially in Japan, the government had quite a bit of say in culture.  The Japanese people did not just decide to worship the Emperor; they were taught to do so from the day that they were born.  However, the culture of Japan and the culture of the US is, and was, different.  They went by different (not inferior) social norms.  For instance, at least in the 40's, apologizing for wrongdoing, even war crimes, was seen as of the utmost importance.  We might think of it as ridiculous, but they probably looked at our business suits the same way for a long time.
................ :huh

Quote
The key is to see it from their point of view, too.  Ethnocentrism is a dangerous thing.
The key is to see it from no ones point of view.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2012, 12:12:43 PM »
Raphael, I watched the link(s), and I 100% stand behind my statement.  From my point of view, the film portrayed the US as aggressors and incapable of stopping our attacks on their "defenseless" populace.

The japanese did 100% earn the ending of their war of aggression.  Regardless of the using of nukes, the continued fire bombing campaigns, or an all out campaign to destroy the food supply, the war needed to be ended with minimal allied casualties, and it was.  Case closed.  The rest is pure semantics.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2012, 02:58:47 PM »
You cant "blockade" a country you had already been blockading after youv already destroyed their navy and commercial shipping. At the time Japan was importing no meaningful foodstuffs or industrial materials. Heck they even had to use their submarines to try and sneak rice into the few island garrisons they had left. They had a population ready to attack with pitchforks and were already only eating what they could grow. A blockade was not an option cause one was already in place.
 Sounds like another Democratic system Ive heard of ;) BTW check your sources, in 1932 they recieved about 33%, 2nd only to Von Hindenburg, and then later in the year almost 38%, "popular vote in a Parlimentary election not reichstag votes". These votes are what gave Hitlers party all those Reichstag seats.The one who actually appointed Hitler chancellor was Von Hindenburg. The President.
 LOL, well I lived in Turkey under martial Law, a country that lined up 1 milion Armenians and shot them before WW1. I think your overestimating my underestimating.
 ................ :huh
 The key is to see it from no ones point of view.

There is no such thing as objective history.  It's not that all history contains hidden messages, it's that those who write history will inevitably incorporate anachronisms (e.g., it's hard to really wrap your head around slavery if you've never seen it, etc.,).  History's very nature is the compression of the trillions of events of the past into an easy-to-read package via essays, books, and magazines.  As the compression grows, what may have been a few misplaced words can repaint an entire period.  Take this, for example:

At dawn, Tecumseh saw the the soldiers advancing on his position.

If I change that to, say:

At dawn, British forces made their advance on Tecumseh's rebel army.

Though both of these statements convey the same facts, the first makes the reader feel like Tecumseh was just defending himself, while the second makes the British army look like they were just trying to restore order.  If Tecumseh gets only 10 sentences (common for most US History books) then readers might get the wrong idea because of one little slip up.  Nobody is perfect, and even historians go through the little ups and downs that we do.  For instance, a historian might not treat the British too kindly only because the cashier at the Dunkin Donuts where he/she got his/her coffee was rude and British.  It wouldn't be purposeful, but this phenomenon, called projection, is part of human psychology and it along with other such phenomena can and will foil any attempt at 'objective' history.

The Reichstag election gave the Nazi party (not Hitler) ~30% of the votes, however, it wasn't like that until the Great Depression.  For a long time, it hovered, as I said, around ~15%.  The German people may or may not have been antisemitic, but hatred was downplayed in Nazi election rhetoric.  The reparations were very much a burden, and when the Great Depression came they became unbearable due to inflation and a general economic collapse.  These reparations were useful to Hitler because he could stir nationalism by saying that he wouldn't repay them, and instead revive Germany's flagging economy.  On that note, his greatest support was from the lower middle class, teachers, public servants, clerks; those who had lost the most in the inflation of the Great depression.  If you read the very end of the Wikipedia article on the Nazi Party, you'll see this:

Quote
...support for the Nazis had fallen to 33.1%, suggesting that the Nazi surge had passed its peak – possibly because the worst of the Depression had passed, possibly because some middle-class voters had supported Hitler in July as a protest, but had now drawn back from the prospect of actually putting him into power.

One can clearly see that Hitler and the Nazi party were not supported due to racial hatred or nationalist aims of the German people, but rather that they wanted to protest the non-functionality of their political system and get their economy moving again.  In fact, Hitler's harsh rhetoric may have put voters off as the worst of the Depression passed, making the potential damage of putting his dangerous ideas into practice worse than letting the economy stay where it was.  Think of it this way, if you're starving, you'll do just about anything for anyone who promises to feed you.  However, if you find food, you'll start to pay more attention to their other qualities.  The same was true for the German people of the 1930s.

When did you live in Turkey?  What was going on?  Why was martial law in place?

Do you really think that the average Gen and Senjo were going to do something like that?  That's like saying that citizens of the US are all really good at football because in the fall they all wear colorful jerseys, train their kids to play, and imitate football players.  On the contrary, most of the US is in no shape to be playing football.  If you look at the Japanese training films, you see that most of the people with pitchforks, etc., were schoolchildren, who really didn't have any choice in whether they wanted to do the training routine or not.  If push had really come to shove, then the the vast majority of the civilian population would have just shut their doors and hid in bunkers.  Perhaps a few determined ones would go out to the beaches, but the road system just wouldn't be able to handle it.  You'd have to move millions in a matter of hours.  Let's do the math.

The horizon is about 2 nautical miles when viewed from the beach.   If we combine the speeds of landing craft and fleet, we get a speed of around 7 knots.  You'd have 2/7ths of an hour, or about 8-9 minutes to get all the people to the correct beach at the correct time.  Needless to say, bombing nearby cities would certainly pin the civilians down enough to keep them in their shelters.  As for actually conquering the island itself, take Tokyo and the whole thing comes crashing down like a house of cards.  The emperor was the lynchpin of the whole operation, capture or kill him and there would be nothing left.  That's not to say that anything here would be easy, but millions of casualties is a gross overestimate.  It's like doing a third of the Holocaust in a few days.  That's tough even if you really get cracking with firebombing and 40s era nukes.

The blockade could have been very well sustained, and don't underestimate the effectiveness of the OSS regarding assassinations.  The allies came within a hair's breadth of killing Hitler.  Furthermore, if Japan can't do anything to anyone anymore, then for all intents and purposes, the war is over.  What difference does it make if they never officially 'gave up,'? The same is true in Korea, and I don't see any large scale military operations going on there (barring the occasional chest thumping).

Raphael, I watched the link(s), and I 100% stand behind my statement.  From my point of view, the film portrayed the US as aggressors and incapable of stopping our attacks on their "defenseless" populace.

The japanese did 100% earn the ending of their war of aggression.  Regardless of the using of nukes, the continued fire bombing campaigns, or an all out campaign to destroy the food supply, the war needed to be ended with minimal allied casualties, and it was.  Case closed.  The rest is pure semantics.

So you're saying that in a country with a non-representative government the people are responsible for their government's actions to the point that heavily populated non-essential areas can be nuked if their government messes up?  If so, then in that sense war is "no holds barred," and we should view events such as 9/11 and Hiroshima as part of the bargain.  The intent of the aggressors in both cases was exactly the same: Reduce the enemies morale by killing civilians and destroying property to the point that they surrender.  If not, then we should apologize for the nukes and be rightly ticked off by 9/11.  Obviously, the second case is true, and that brings me to my next point.  In dealing the deathblow of a war, the idea is to reduce casualties on both sides in order to prevent hard feelings later on.

-Penguin

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2012, 03:36:02 PM »
So you're saying that in a country with a non-representative government the people are responsible for their government's actions to the point that heavily populated non-essential areas can be nuked if their government messes up?  If so, then in that sense war is "no holds barred," and we should view events such as 9/11 and Hiroshima as part of the bargain.  The intent of the aggressors in both cases was exactly the same: Reduce the enemies morale by killing civilians and destroying property to the point that they surrender.  If not, then we should apologize for the nukes and be rightly ticked off by 9/11.  Obviously, the second case is true, and that brings me to my next point.  In dealing the deathblow of a war, the idea is to reduce casualties on both sides in order to prevent hard feelings later on.

-Penguin

Everything we do has consequences whether we want it or not.  This discussion will quickly delve into political areas to explain why I feel the way I do.  These are topics which are no longer allowed, so, to keep this short and within the rules, I will stick with consequences. 

The japanese, regardless of whether they voted or not, followed their leader / military.  Those people made poor choices which affected the entirety of the nation when they killed others from another nation to expand their own ambitions.  Those choices along with many more made through the end of the war made it very clear to the allied war machine that they could accept nothing but unconditional surrender of the japanese to end the war.  The choices the japanese made to continue the war after they had clearly lost and to adopt a policy of fighting to the last person even using civilians as weapons or even willing participants in attacks had consequences.  Those choices came back to haunt the japanese as the allies realized that the only way to prevent the slaughter on hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers and millions of japanese (think fight to the last person) was to continue a fire bombing campaign to hopefully convince the japanese that the war was over.  The end whether continued fire bombing or nukes saved countless lives. 

The japanese earned that end when they attacked the allies and attempted to continue the fight to the last person.  They earned those consequences.

As for comparing the attack of 9/11 to Hiroshima, I would say that you are comparing very different acts.  The very fact that the latter is an act that was part of a declared war between nation states and that the former was an attack by terrorists on defenseless civilians makes them different.  Did the US make choices to earn those consequences?  No, but defending that answer becomes a political discussion that is not allowed here.

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Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2012, 04:02:24 PM »

As for comparing the attack of 9/11 to Hiroshima, I would say that you are comparing very different acts.  The very fact that the latter is an act that was part of a declared war between nation states and that the former was an attack by terrorists on defenseless civilians makes them different.  Did the US make choices to earn those consequences?  No, but defending that answer becomes a political discussion that is not allowed here.


You could look at it a different way, and consider that Japanese civilians had no choice or voice in the people who were ruling them or the policies they enacted

While the US governments with their disgusting foreign policy (Cold War [hilarious], Vietnam, Middle East) were voted in democratically by American citizens



just playing devils advocate really  :devil
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2012, 04:41:26 PM »
You could look at it a different way, and consider that Japanese civilians had no choice or voice in the people who were ruling them or the policies they enacted

While the US governments with their disgusting foreign policy (Cold War [hilarious], Vietnam, Middle East) were voted in democratically by American citizens



just playing devils advocate really  :devil

If you keep delving into politics, the thread will get closed. 

The two acts are not the same.  That is very clear no matter how much revisionist nonsense you want to add to this.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2012, 05:02:55 PM »
Everything we do has consequences whether we want it or not.  This discussion will quickly delve into political areas to explain why I feel the way I do.  These are topics which are no longer allowed, so, to keep this short and within the rules, I will stick with consequences. 

The japanese, regardless of whether they voted or not, followed their leader / military.  Those people made poor choices which affected the entirety of the nation when they killed others from another nation to expand their own ambitions.  Those choices along with many more made through the end of the war made it very clear to the allied war machine that they could accept nothing but unconditional surrender of the japanese to end the war.  The choices the japanese made to continue the war after they had clearly lost and to adopt a policy of fighting to the last person even using civilians as weapons or even willing participants in attacks had consequences.  Those choices came back to haunt the japanese as the allies realized that the only way to prevent the slaughter on hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers and millions of japanese (think fight to the last person) was to continue a fire bombing campaign to hopefully convince the japanese that the war was over.  The end whether continued fire bombing or nukes saved countless lives. 

The japanese earned that end when they attacked the allies and attempted to continue the fight to the last person.  They earned those consequences.

As for comparing the attack of 9/11 to Hiroshima, I would say that you are comparing very different acts.  The very fact that the latter is an act that was part of a declared war between nation states and that the former was an attack by terrorists on defenseless civilians makes them different.  Did the US make choices to earn those consequences?  No, but defending that answer becomes a political discussion that is not allowed here.



I've yet to see you cite a single source.  How are you so sure?  The one piece of evidence that we've seen on that subject of Japanese morale indicates that by the time of Hiroshima it was waning.

Ok, so 9/11 wasn't absurd enough.  Fine.  Let's make it really simple.

Imagine Bob is at his house, and Alice comes in the door holding a double-barreled shotgun and blows Bob's head clean off.  The next day, Alice goes to court and her defense is: He could have stopped me!  Can't you see?  It's not like Bob was asking to be prematurely decapitated, why should he have to constantly be on the lookout for whackos with guns?  The same applies to the Japanese people.  Are you really suggesting that the Japanese deserved to be nuked because their tyrannical government that wouldn't let them voice their opinions did bad things?  Can you, with a straight face, say that the thousands of babies, children, and elderly people who lived in Hiroshima deserved to die horrible, slow, excruciating deaths because they were too weak to stage a coup against an enormously powerful tyrannical government to live up to the expectations of American armchair revolutionaries?

How does that make any sense at all?

If you keep delving into politics, the thread will get closed. 

The two acts are not the same.  That is very clear no matter how much revisionist nonsense you want to add to this.

Let's compare and contrast Hiroshima and 9/11.

Similarities:
They both involved the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of civilians.
Both were committed during a period of conflict.
Both targets' militaries were incapable of preventing the attack.
Both served to induce the opposing force to cease and desist.

Differences:
9/11 was committed by terrorists while Hiroshima was nuked by paid employees of the United States
Hiroshima was nuked during a war among nations, while 9/11 was committed during a conflict between (mostly) the US and an international terrorist group.

However, does it really matter if the guy that killed thousands of people wore a uniform?  The end result is the same; thousands of people died horribly.  That's not revisionism, nor is it nonsense.  Killing civilians that do not significantly contribute to the war effort of an adversary is unjustifiable.

-Penguin

EDIT: Flow, grammar, and other fiddly bits.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 05:09:17 PM by Penguin »

Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2012, 05:23:04 PM »
If you keep delving into politics, the thread will get closed.

I agree

The two acts are not the same.

I agree

 
That is very clear no matter how much revisionist nonsense you want to add to this.

 :rofl what revisionist nonsense are you referring to?
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2012, 05:58:51 PM »
Penguin,
Stop being obtuse.  Your example is in noway relevant to the topic.

As for my feelings, I absolutely have ZERO qualms about the United States actions during WW2 with regards to fire bombing or nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I feel that both types of actions served a purpose that furthered the end result which was the prevention of further loss of life for the allies and near annihilation of the japanese in the end.  Japanese morale was in no way a factor of ending the war especially considering the examples set on okinawa and the indisputable fact that the japanese were stockpiling scores of suicide weapons on the home islands for use in repelling and invasion.  Further, their actions too date indicate that the defense would have been fanatical and involved the use of women and children as was clearly evident on okinawa.  So, again, I will repeat that they earned the ending of the war as a consequence of their actions.  Whether their populace stood up (or not) to their leaders is irrelevant to the discussion.  The actions of the japanese as a whole earned the ending they received.

As for your attempts to compare 9/11 and Hiroshima or nagasaki, there is simply no relevance between the two events.  The only relevance is that they indeed are both attacks, that is where the relevance stops.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2012, 06:01:48 PM »

 :rofl what revisionist nonsense are you referring to?


Sorry, but I do not agree with your opinions on the cold war as they are revisionist at best.  Call it what you like, just remember that the discussion involves politics which can not exist on this board.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2012, 06:56:10 PM »
Penguin,
Stop being obtuse.  Your example is in noway relevant to the topic.

As for my feelings, I absolutely have ZERO qualms about the United States actions during WW2 with regards to fire bombing or nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I feel that both types of actions served a purpose that furthered the end result which was the prevention of further loss of life for the allies and near annihilation of the japanese in the end.  Japanese morale was in no way a factor of ending the war especially considering the examples set on okinawa and the indisputable fact that the japanese were stockpiling scores of suicide weapons on the home islands for use in repelling and invasion.  Further, their actions too date indicate that the defense would have been fanatical and involved the use of women and children as was clearly evident on okinawa.  So, again, I will repeat that they earned the ending of the war as a consequence of their actions.  Whether their populace stood up (or not) to their leaders is irrelevant to the discussion.  The actions of the japanese as a whole earned the ending they received.

As for your attempts to compare 9/11 and Hiroshima or nagasaki, there is simply no relevance between the two events.  The only relevance is that they indeed are both attacks, that is where the relevance stops.

If you wish to say that my comparison is irrelevant, then please refute my logic or point out where my evidence is lacking.

Don't move the goalposts by making this conversation about the war itself.  We're talking about Hiroshima.

The suicide weapons were an indication of Japanese desperation, not of high morale or confidence in success.

If you think that the goal of the allies in WWII was to 'annihilate' the Japanese, then you are sorely mistaken.  While both countries had aggressive foreign policies before the war (the US's was more damaging to Japan than Japan's was to the US), neither was out to destroy the other.  The goal of Pearl harbor was meant to scare the US out of the Pacific region, not kill everyone in the US.  The Japanese were very well aware that they could not conquer the US, but hoped to terrify it so much that it would not dare challenge Japanese actions in the Pacific.  The US wasn't stupid, and attempted to curb Japan's imperialism by putting an embargo on Japanese oil, which backfired via Pearl Harbor.  It's clear that neither side was waging a war of annihilation, so nuking the Japanese only served the interest of ending the war more quickly.  My point is that nuking a non-essential city in order to get Japan to sue for peace was overkill, and doing some 'landscaping' on Mount Fuji or just dropping it in the harbor would have been more than enough to convince the Japanese government to surrender.

Remember, living in Japan at the time was like living in North Korea; dissent was frowned upon in a way that could endanger lives, limbs, and careers.  That's not to say that there weren't any nationalists, there were probably plenty, but the kind of homogeneously fanatical society that you describe is inconsistent with the facts.  Also, one cannot judge the character of a nation's people by the actions of their military, especially if the government of the country in question is tyrannical, as we all know Japan's was.

-Penguin

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2012, 07:21:40 PM »
I have not changed anything Penguin, you come up with ridiculous comparisons and expect me to give them air time... sorry this is not the play ground, I will not play that game.

Further, I have never said the US or allied goal was the annihilation of the japanese.  Instead, your inability to comprehend the statement that the US sought to avoid allied casualties AND the near annihilation of the japanese has you putting words in my mouth.  Going on, you mention morale, separating Hiroshima from the war, and other foolishness.  Somewhat surprisingly, you neglect to consider why the allies proceeded in a manner of choosing nuking two cities instead of landing on their home islands?  Realize that those decisions came as a result of a war of aggression, fanatical defense to the last person, use of civilians for war efforts both in production and aggression, and mass preparation for suicide type defense on their home islands. 

The japanese earned the end of the war.  The allies should be thanked for NOT invading and killing millions more in a battle that most likely would have seen an end of the japanese culture.


Lastly, the japanese were in no way like the North Koreans, the japanese were fanatically loyal to their emperor which is why he was not removed, the allies knew his help would be necessary for the rebuilding of Japan.  Further discussion of this subject will take us into politics which we are not allowed to discuss.

As for whether the japanese were fanatical, talk to a few people that served in the Pacific.  You might actually realize you know nothing but revisionist nonsense at that point.
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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2012, 07:46:53 PM »
Just to be clear, I would like to know what 'this' is.  You may also have been referring to my point about whether it was a good idea to nuke Japan.  I have no interest in breaking rule #14, but I don't want to concede points that I don't need to.  If I know nothing but 'revisionist nonsense' then it is some good nonsense, because the facts support me.

Now as to whether the Japanese were fanatical, the first thing that we need to do is define who these "Japanese" were.  If you refer to the Japanese military, then you may be right because it is possible to indoctrinate via brutalization any idea one chooses.  Japanese civilians, however, were not subject to the same degree of misinformation and propaganda because such efforts would be better spent on the military.

With regard to the suicide attacks, it has become apparent that the previous nationalistic portrayal was about as accurate as The A-Team.  Mr. Wantanabe, a kamikaze instructor, said that "''It's all a lie that they left filled with braveness and joy, crying, 'Long live the emperor!  They were sheep at a slaughterhouse. Everybody was looking down and tottering. Some were unable to stand up and were carried and pushed into the plane by maintenance soldiers.''  This is no surprise because just like those who commit suicide, the kamikaze pilots of Japan quickly regretted their decision once they realized that death was no longer an abstract notion, but a cold, hard fact.

The destruction of Japanese culture?  Where are you getting this?  Even if the invasion cost as many lives as you predict, who would replace the Japanese?  Also remember that there is a strong right-wing militarist movement in Japan right now, and it is in its self-interest to portray kamikaze pilots as such.  I'm not trying to comment on the movement itself, but I just want to make it clear that the current portrayal of Japanese suicide pilots in Japan is tending toward one of glory.

My source for Mr. Wantanabe's quote: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C11FB3E5A0C728DDDAB0894DE404482&pagewanted=2

-Penguin