Author Topic: Barefoot Gen  (Read 2407 times)

Offline Rino

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 07:07:29 PM »
     Congrats, that's the most ignorant thing I've read in a while.  No wonder these threads get locked.
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Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 07:26:43 PM »
I am really shocked and surprised that an American thinks that Japanese civilians deserved to be nuked for the actions of their military, while American civilians did not deserve to be attacked on 9/11 because of the actions of their military

Really surprising
     
(Note for stupid people - I am not saying Americans deserved to be attacked on 9/11, or that Japan deserved to be nuked. This should be obvious to those of you who can read but I have to spell it out for this forum. Just highlighting the usual hilarious hypocrisy and brainwashing that always comes up in discussion of American foreign policy/wars)
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Offline Nypsy

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 07:44:20 PM »
I am really shocked and surprised that an American thinks that Japanese civilians deserved to be nuked for the actions of their military, while American civilians did not deserve to be attacked on 9/11 because of the actions of their military

Really surprising
     
(Note for stupid people - I am not saying Americans deserved to be attacked on 9/11, or that Japan deserved to be nuked. This should be obvious to those of you who can read but I have to spell it out for this forum. Just highlighting the usual hilarious hypocrisy and brainwashing that always comes up in discussion of American foreign policy/wars)

I am confused. We should not have nuked Japan? Invasion or blockade and starve them to death for a few years? I am so confused.

Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 07:51:16 PM »
 :headscratch:

That's wasn't my point at all. I don't disagree with how the conflict with Japan was ended, sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do.

Read the previous page for context, and if you still don't get it then I'm afraid I don't have the patience to explain it to you without being an insulting, arrogant a-hole.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 07:54:57 PM by coombz »
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Offline Nypsy

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 08:12:27 PM »
:headscratch:

That's wasn't my point at all. I don't disagree with how the conflict with Japan was ended, sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do.

Read the previous page for context, and if you still don't get it then I'm afraid I don't have the patience to explain it to you without being an insulting, arrogant a-hole.

Got it, did a little thinking about your post after i posted and saw your point.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 08:19:52 PM »
They are to blame for everything that happened in that war. First off Hitler was elected by Democratic means. Then the German people, a Democratic God fearing people, kept selling more and more of their souls to that despot and his cronies. Very few protested. A few brave souls tried to kill Hitler, "tho mostly to save Germany and not for Hitlers crimes". The Holocaust and treatment of other races by both Germany and Japan had to be the worst kept secrets of the war.

But no matter how you cut it nothing exuses the revisionist history of Japan and its failure to admit its guilt for WW2. Japan is more a "nation family" then just a "nation" and to this day are in denial as to what their citizens, soldiers, and govt., really did in that war. Germany I think has come to grips with WW2 and as a nation avoids revisionism.

You're messing up the chronology.  Here's how it happened:

1918- the Great War is over.  People the world over rejoice.
1918-1919- Paris Peace Conference.  The bitter terms of the peace impoverishes Germany and fuels unrest.
1920s- The Weimar republic struggles to maintain itself as its economy collapses under the weight of reparations.  Hitler takes the Nazi party from a fringe group to a major power.
1930s- First, Hitler is democratically elected by his political allies (not the German people).  Then, he begins his massive reform programs.
Late 1930s- Brutal totalitarianism terrifies the people and makes dissent impossible for all but the mad (those few who tried to kill Hitler).
1940s- The war drags on, and gradually the will to fight wanes.
VE Day and Beyond- The war is over, and a new system of repair, not reparations, begins.  The people of Germany and the world then find out, to their horror, what Hitler's government had really done to the Jews.

Your argument is anachronistic; the Germans only wanted to end the brutal reparations and resume their lives.  They were also feeling downtrodden, and Hitler's speeches about a betrayal of Germany by Jews and Communists and white supremacy were just the right political move.  I'm not justifying the choice, but you have to understand that the German people were duped: the Holocaust was kept a secret and the government had absolute power.  Dissent had neither means nor moral highground.

The Japanese had it even worse.  They lived under an absolute monarchy that had indoctrinated its subjects for generations, and the ultramilitarist movement quickly took hold as demand for natural resources grew.  However, the Japanese people themselves had no peaceful way to resist the war.  Japan has offered its apologies for the war and its war crimes on many occaisions throughout the 20th century.  Here's a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan Each and every apology has its own citation, so this article wants not for accuracy.

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Offline Raphael

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 08:44:42 PM »
I am scared in this discussion guys... the point of films like these are to show how humans can do such horrible things then and now, we have movies about the "holocaust" and such...  :( you can see, this movie has (by itself) no propaganda inside, people who watch it are the ones who put their ideologies in their interpretations.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 09:19:39 PM »
hind sight is always 20/20 fellas, remember that.  As a student of WWII (yes, I have an actual "minor" in WWII, underneath my majors), this topic will bring out the absolute worst in people I saw it first hand.  It will bring out the ignorance, over-generalization, hawks and doves, and those who are not able to take their minds back in time and think outside of their own learned standards.  Discussing this topic will also bring people out in droves comparing the standards of today against those of pre-1950.  Until people can look at this topic without personal opinion getting in the way of their logical reasoning, they will never be able to arrive at the core discussion of this very deep topic, and it is far deeper than most people can grasp.

Hold fast your tongues and let your voice be slower than your mind.   ;)

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Offline Rich52

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 09:32:44 PM »
Quote
I am really shocked and surprised that an American thinks that Japanese civilians deserved to be nuked for the actions of their military, while American civilians did not deserve to be attacked on 9/11 because of the actions of their military

Really surprising

We nuked them in order to avoid an invasion that would have cost at least 1,000,000 Allied casualties. And God only knows how many Japanese ones. Its that simple! We had warned the Military Govt. of japan they faced total destruction at home and they still refused to give up, even after the firebombing of Tokyo. Which was far worse then either atomic bomb attack.

Quote
You're messing up the chronology.  Here's how it happened:

1918- the Great War is over.  People the world over rejoice.
1918-1919- Paris Peace Conference.  The bitter terms of the peace impoverishes Germany and fuels unrest.
Good so far.

Quote
1920s- The Weimar republic struggles to maintain itself as its economy collapses under the weight of reparations.  Hitler takes the Nazi party from a fringe group to a major power.
More the worldwide depression then reparations. Germany borrowed a ton of $$, mostly from America in the '20s, that it used for rebuilding NOT reparations. But I agree the seeds of WW2 were planted after WW1.

Quote
1930s- First, Hitler is democratically elected by his political allies (not the German people).  Then, he begins his massive reform programs.
He was elected by PEOPLE! As in VOTERS! And even then by only about 1/3 of those.

Quote
Late 1930s- Brutal totalitarianism terrifies the people and makes dissent impossible for all but the mad (those few who tried to kill Hitler).
While Im sure the German citizenry were afraid of their Govt. they didnt really care about the jews or other "undesireables". While they were winning most bought Hitlers world vision lock,stock, and barrel.

Quote
1940s- The war drags on, and gradually the will to fight wanes.
Negative. The German military was a superbly disciplined and effective fighting force. Until the very end they never gave up and German citizens, if anything, worked harder for the war effort even after they knew they faced losing the war.

Quote
VE Day and Beyond- The war is over, and a new system of repair, not reparations, begins.  The people of Germany and the world then find out, to their horror, what Hitler's government had really done to the Jews.
You really think you can annihilate all those millions of people, in a systematic/Industrial campaign, and the citizens didnt know? All the Germans that settled in Poland/occupied territorys, all the soldiers going on leave, the letters home? The huge bureaucracy involved? Hundreds of thousands involved or observing? And you think the German citizens didnt know?

Quote
Your argument is anachronistic; the Germans only wanted to end the brutal reparations and resume their lives.  They were also feeling downtrodden, and Hitler's speeches about a betrayal of Germany by Jews and Communists and white supremacy were just the right political move.  I'm not justifying the choice, but you have to understand that the German people were duped: the Holocaust was kept a secret and the government had absolute power.  Dissent had neither means nor moral highground.

They werent "duped' at all. Racism was rampant in Europe at the time. Most of all in Germany. Thats why the Germans got so much support from so many of the countries they invaded. France, the baltics, Hungary, Poland, even the freaking Vatican! BTW Hats off to the brave people of the Netherlands, Norway, Finland, Sweden...ect who protected their Jews. I dont think the Leaders/citizens of those countries had any illusions what "resettlement" meant.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2012, 09:35:46 PM »
Please know and understand the difference between antisemitism and racism.  They are 2 very different things.   :aok
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Offline wil3ur

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 09:38:58 PM »
The nukes had very little to do with the end of the war.  The Soviet Union declaring war on Japan scared them into submission, and they surrendered unconditionally to the United States NOT the allies.  They saw what happened in Eastern Europe and did not want to be a member of the USSR.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:40:58 PM by wil3ur »
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Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 09:43:57 PM »
We nuked them in order to avoid an invasion that would have cost at least 1,000,000 Allied casualties. And God only knows how many Japanese ones. Its that simple! We had warned the Military Govt. of japan they faced total destruction at home and they still refused to give up, even after the firebombing of Tokyo. Which was far worse then either atomic bomb attack.
 

Sure, I have no issue with this.

Not sure what relevance it has to what I posted though.
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Offline coombz

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 09:47:31 PM »
This is the first thread ever where I have agreed with everything SmokinLoon says  :salute

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Offline Raphael

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 09:51:55 PM »
hind sight is always 20/20 fellas, remember that.  As a student of WWII (yes, I have an actual "minor" in WWII, underneath my majors), this topic will bring out the absolute worst in people I saw it first hand.  It will bring out the ignorance, over-generalization, hawks and doves, and those who are not able to take their minds back in time and think outside of their own learned standards.  Discussing this topic will also bring people out in droves comparing the standards of today against those of pre-1950.  Until people can look at this topic without personal opinion getting in the way of their logical reasoning, they will never be able to arrive at the core discussion of this very deep topic, and it is far deeper than most people can grasp.

Hold fast your tongues and let your voice be slower than your mind.   ;)


I am sorry smoking, I should have thougt more before posting the link to these forums, I am sure this goes deep down in the US citizen's mind as much as it goes in Japaneses' maybe skuzzy could lock the thread, it was not the intent, the subject diverted. I really wanted to share the link like when you share a book you just read.
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Offline Rich52

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Re: Barefoot Gen
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 11:25:46 AM »
Please know and understand the difference between antisemitism and racism.  They are 2 very different things.   :aok

Not to the Nazis. Who considered Judaism a "race" as did much of Academia at the time. And indeed still do. The Germans even measured skulls and physical characteristics to support their science. Whacky yes. But "they" believed it. The Japanese were just as racist, tho their basis for racial hatred stemmed more from their religious/social ideals then from the so called "science" of the Nazis. To the Japanese their Emperor was the equivalent of Jesus to Christianity and since he was "semi-devine" so were they. They also believed that other races were of less worth because they were "soft", less disciplined, and not as commited to the common good as they were.

These things werent exactly nonexistant in the west either. But at least we didnt invade vast swaths of countries murdering, what they believed to be, lesser races by the millions as if they were insects. Thats why revisionism of WW2 history upsets me so much, most of all when the atomic attacks are discussed. Terrible events yes but in the end they saved millions on both sides. And they were! the main reason the Japanese surrendered. The Soviets had no means to attack, let alone invade, the sacred Japanese homeland so the destruction of one more army in Manchuria had very little impact toward ending the war. By that time everyone in Japans Govt. knew the war was lost. The Military simply didnt want to give up without a fight. The nukes gave the Emperor the reason he needed to intervene and force a surrender. Especially after a secret agreement that the royal family would not be held accountable for war crimes.

I spent four years around "special weapons" and have no illusions about them. I wish there were none left on this earth. Its also my belief they will be used again.

Quote
I am sorry smoking, I should have thougt more before posting the link to these forums, I am sure this goes deep down in the US citizen's mind as much as it goes in Japaneses' maybe skuzzy could lock the thread, it was not the intent, the subject diverted. I really wanted to share the link like when you share a book you just read.

Apologies if a respectful, Intellectual conversation followed your posting of a cartoon. If it upsets you so much maybe contact Skuzzy who might lock it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 11:31:23 AM by Rich52 »
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