Avoiding the First Snapshot When Getting Bounced

[Warty]

Here's a common situation for me:
- flying along. say a Spit 16.
- F4U or Tempest comes from non-rear-quarter direction, 5k higher.
- Con rolls in on me, fast closure.
- I break.
- Con kills me during break (because my break move sucks)

I've tried various breaks here, but often enough, they get a 1/2 second snapshot that kills me or damages me enough so that it doesn't make a difference. I'm not talking about the folks who throttle down and saddle up behind me. These are guys just going to take a snap, and then set up their next shot, holding on to their E.

If I go horizontal, the F4Us seem to be able to get enough instantaneous turn performance to get a deadly snapshot a lot of the time. If I split S, this works fairly well, but still a fair number of times I get killed during the split S. I hate to pull up in front of a con, but maybe I *should* do a really tight upwards vertical move here? Seems counter-intuitive.

Is it a question of timing? What would be a good combo of move + timing of when to start it?

[lengro]

.


EDIT:
nvm - misread the post.  

[RTHolmes]

yes the key is timing, if hes getting a 0.5s shot on you you're breaking waaaaay too early. make sure you're near corner speed (260-280 in most fighters) and break when hes d800

[AAJagerX]

yes the key is timing, if hes getting a 0.5s shot on you you're breaking waaaaay too early. make sure you're near corner speed (260-280 in most fighters) and break when hes d800

Adding to this...

Get the attacker out of position while he's still a ways out.  If he's coming down fast, his options are limited (depending on what plane he's flying).  I like to get a diving attacker out of phase a bit (He's not directly following your turns with a gun solution...  He's lagging slightly behind your roll, and can't quite pull lead for an easy shot.).  You don't have to be flopping all over the place.  Alot of times, less is more.  

The less is more approach can also set you up for a good overshoot reversal, as you didn't burn up a ton of energy making drastic turns.  This also allows for a better shot on your attacker if he does overshoot.  You'll have more energy to work with, and he may not be able to zoom out of gun range before you get a shot.

Don't sell out too early.  Make it a surprise.  He's not going to have a quality shot until he's within D800 anyway, so don't show your hand on the first move.

When he gets in gun range, stay aggressive.  Don't just look for the split S and an escape attempt.  Fast birds will just run you down anyway, and you'll start the whole process over again.  There are definately times to make a hasty escape though...  Knowing when to do so takes some experience with fighting from a disadvantage.  

Fight it out from a bad position often.  You'll get a feel for which situations are reversible.  

Gunnery...  Work on accuracy.  The ability to end a fight with one solid shot is very important.  It doesn't matter how slick your moves are if you can't put rounds on target.

Practice practice practice.

 

[bozon]

In the end, it all comes down to probabilities because the attacking plane will always be able to get a shot - you just need to make it an improbable one.

There are three things you can do to make it more difficult for the attacker:
1. Make it hard for him to see - if you break too early, all he needs to do is to pull just a few degrees and he is pointing ahead of you for a clear, low-G deflection shot. The longer you wait, the more lead he will need to pull, at higher "G" and this means you disappear under his nose while he is pulling. He'll be forced to take a blind deflection shot.

2. Make him work all his controls - prevent him from taking a steady aim. Make him roll just before/while taking his shot. You do this first by not breaking too early (see #1) and second by rolling just before the break (i.e., do not wait on your side for the right moment to pull). Do not tilt the plane and expose your intended move. In a fast rolling plane, and spit 16 is one, you can even fake a break by rolling to one side, then reversing (or completing 270 deg roll) and breaking in the other direction. He will be forced to match you roll if he wants to pull lead for the shot, making his aim MUCH less accurate. If your plane has a vastly superior roll rate, you may throw him off completely. A more advanced move is to roll slowly WHILE you are in the break turn. From the attacker POV, he needs to extrapolate your curved trajectory instead of a simple linear one. This is more energy wasteful on your side, but good players do this already as a setup to rolling back and get a return shot after he blows by.

3. Make your plane smaller - try to give your side instead of your top as the target. This means breaking and immediately rolling again to expose your side. On twin engine planes this makes a huge difference. Less so on small single fighters, but still.

[mthrockmor]

Agreed on many points. What I've found is three fold.

First, make sure you have at least 260knts. I speed climb at 260. No matter the situation I know I have plenty of speed to do what I need.

Second, do not let them get right above you. Make them start their dive from your long-6.

Third, make them overshoot and give them no choice.

When I see them above me I first check my speed then fky away, forcing them to approach from my six. When they are roughly 2k away I make a snug turn (keep your speed, no need blacking out) 90 degrees left or right. Then as they get closer I continue the slow turn. When they get d800 or less I make a tight turn and it's done. At best they get a fraction of a second. Most times they get zero shot.

I learned the rough concept from Greebo. Works like a charm. The merge begins with a patient game of ballet to set it up.

Boo

[mtnman]

I'd recommend doing some searching for "barrel roll defense", and doing what it takes to figure that out.  You may need to get with a trainer or other somebody else who's skilled in it to really get it perfected.

That first "break" you make is often going to be the "beginning of the end" for one of you, so the better prepared you are the better.  That means SA of course, but it also means learning to judge E and angles, and to really have a good, solid, but flexible plan to implement.  You really need to learn to make that first "dodge" your first move of several designed to put that bad guy right where you can kill him.

Using that break to just dodge getting killed is a good way to get yourself killed on one of his next passes.  It's obviously important to dodge his shot, but where you go from there is also very important.

[RTHolmes]

I'd recommend doing some searching for "barrel roll defense", and doing what it takes to figure that out.  You may need to get with a trainer or other somebody else who's skilled in it to really get it perfected.

yup, first learn to do a simple break effectively, then learn the BRD, then learn the rolling scissors.

[Soulyss]

One common mistake I see people making is that their "break" is linear and predictable.  At the high speeds that are pretty common in that initial attack/bounce there is a lot of lead required to hit the target which means that many times the attacker may not even be able to see his target but because the target evasive follows a predictable flight path he can still line up the shot.

I'll see if I can find some film examples, but there are a couple things that I try to do when I see that initial attack coming.  The first is I try to use the attackers superior speed against them, in those situations the slower aircraft can make a turn that the attacker cannot initially follow without seriously dumping energy.  I can improve my chances of this occurring by using the one advantage the defender has when the attacker is seeking a guns solution.  I can control where they point their airplane, my first break is usually nose low because I want them to maintain speed, the faster they're going the harder it will be to track me for a shot, I want to use that the speed deferential to my advantage, but forcing their nose low it will be harder for them to control speed and easier for me to set up the overshoot.  Lastly I change my lift vector (roll) during the break right when I feel they are near a shot, this will greatly compound the calculations they have to make in their head to hit me, and if it's a situation where they're firing blind, it's now an extremely difficult or lucky shot to hit me.

[Big Rat]

Defensive rules of thumb:

Now these are guidelines not nescessarily rules. 

1.  Break into the opponent (If he's on your left break into them left and vice versa)
2.  Always break as low into your opponents nose as you can get (make them push their nose over for a shot)  the lower you can get under their nose the better.
3.  Watch for persuit or non persuit. Persuit is better gives a chance at forcing a rolling scissors and reversal if done correctly.  If non-persuit, extend and try and reset fight   on more equal terms if possible.
4.  Always be as aggressive on defence if possible, remember your goal is to go back on offence.
5.  If opponent is within 1.5K consider anything going up to probable suicide, see rules 1./2.

These are basic rules and take them as such, every situation is different.
 
BigRat

[Debrody]

What Big Rat said.
Only a couple more things:
-Make his job harder. I mean, keep your speed up, near the first blackout speed. Slow opponents are easyer to hit.
-Never break "straight". I mean, dont fly on a predictable flight path. If your opponent is lined up perfectly and is just about to shoot, you can even do a quick negative G maneuver as a last chance.
-Dont give him a big target, your full profile with the wings. Give him your side, much harder to hit.
-And finally, try to maintain your energy against a BnZ opponent. Sadly, most of them wont come down and fight, not even with a better turning aircraft. Climb a bit when they extend, gain energy, but dont hang yourself. In the other case, if they come down, just break to the side, pull up, chop throttle, reverse, killshoot him.

Best luck!

[Puma44]

Learn BFM and then how to apply it, ACM. 

[waystin2]

You'll hear a multitude of solutions to this situation, so I might as well add another.  I like to start a very loose turn either right or left as they are coming down, gradually tightening my turn forcing them to bleed some of their stored energy.  As they get into that 800 range my turn is very tight with some black out, and I'll barrel roll up and over the opposite direction of the turn that I was making.  For example slowly tightening turn to the right, then at the correct moment a barrel roll up and over to the left.  Once you have done your barrel roll, immediately find their six and climb after them.  Be careful, do not rope yourself for their second pass.  Nose down after a bit and pick up speed to do the turning/bleeding energy strategy again.  It takes patience to bleed them out, but if they are inefficient and continue biting on this strategy, then you eventually will find yourself equalized in energy with the offending con.  They then have two choices: fight it out, or dive away.  It's all up to you from there..

See you up there,

Way

[VonMessa]

Defensive rules of thumb:

Now these are guidelines not nescessarily rules. 

1.  Break into the opponent (If he's on your left break into them left and vice versa)
2.  Always break as low into your opponents nose as you can get (make them push their nose over for a shot)  the lower you can get under their nose the better.
3.  Watch for persuit or non persuit. Persuit is better gives a chance at forcing a rolling scissors and reversal if done correctly.  If non-persuit, extend and try and reset fight   on more equal terms if possible.
4.  Always be as aggressive on defence if possible, remember your goal is to go back on offence.
5.  If opponent is within 1.5K consider anything going up to probable suicide, see rules 1./2.

These are basic rules and take them as such, every situation is different.
 
BigRat

Except when in a 109-K4 

[Wiley]

All the elements of my strategy on avoiding a bounce are mentioned here by different people.  The main things I focus on are:

-Don't be moving in a straight line relative to the bandit, you're too easy to lead.
-get skinny, don't present him a planform shot.
-This one is big for me...  Don't do the same thing every time.  Put in variations on nose high, nose low, rudder, different angles of break.  If the guy expects you to be predictable and you do the same thing twice, he'll probably nail you.

The one thing I do that seems a bit different than most have mentioned here is, I do my best not to have to break hard.  If I see him coming in from 3k out, I am smoothly moving to an angle that is tough for him.  When I pull, I am usually not pulling more than 3 Gs to avoid his gunnery.

The only time I pull near blackout to avoid a bounce is if I'm engaged or if I was asleep at the wheel and didn't see him til about 1k out.  I rarely get hit, though I'm not sure if that's due to my break being decent, or the average level of gunnery in the main.

Wiley.