Avoiding the First Snapshot When Getting Bounced

[steely07]

You'll hear a multitude of solutions to this situation, so I might as well add another.  I like to start a very loose turn either right or left as they are coming down, gradually tightening my turn forcing them to bleed some of their stored energy.  As they get into that 800 range my turn is very tight with some black out, and I'll barrel roll up and over the opposite direction of the turn that I was making.  For example slowly tightening turn to the right, then at the correct moment a barrel roll up and over to the left.  Once you have done your barrel roll, immediately find their six and climb after them.  Be careful, do not rope yourself for their second pass.  Nose down after a bit and pick up speed to do the turning/bleeding energy strategy again.  It takes patience to bleed them out, but if they are inefficient and continue biting on this strategy, then you eventually will find yourself equalized in energy with the offending con.  They then have two choices: fight it out, or dive away.  It's all up to you from there..

See you up there,

Way

This is exactly what I do (Hurri pilot), getting the opponent to bleed energy is one of the most important things to learn when flying a slow-ish and not particularly powerful aircraft against a faster opponent.

Good luck

Steely

[waystin2]

This is exactly what I do (Hurri pilot), getting the opponent to bleed energy is one of the most important things to learn when flying a slow-ish and not particularly powerful aircraft against a faster opponent.

Good luck

Steely

Yep.  I fly the Spit 8 a lot and she is no speed demon.  What she lacks in speed though, can be made up in climb and energy building inherent to the aircraft.

[Warty]

Thanks for all the great suggestions and hints. Sometimes, the most basic (obvious) things are the ones we forget to do. Since coming back to flight sims, I realized after reading this that I fly "too smoothly". ie, pretty damn predictably. Not flying straight, but after a break move, I wasn't doing little variations in direction (as several people suggested here). I've thrown a few more "jinks" in there, and it seems to be helping.

I mostly fly in the DA, and there don't seem to be that many newbies in there, and quite a few guys with just deadly snapshot ability. I guess the newbies gravitate towards the late war MA.

Anyway, thanks again, lots of stuff to (re-)remember. <S>

[The Fugitive]

Thanks for all the great suggestions and hints. Sometimes, the most basic (obvious) things are the ones we forget to do. Since coming back to flight sims, I realized after reading this that I fly "too smoothly". ie, pretty damn predictably. Not flying straight, but after a break move, I wasn't doing little variations in direction (as several people suggested here). I've thrown a few more "jinks" in there, and it seems to be helping.

I mostly fly in the DA, and there don't seem to be that many newbies in there, and quite a few guys with just deadly snapshot ability. I guess the newbies gravitate towards the late war MA.

Anyway, thanks again, lots of stuff to (re-)remember. <S>

If your talking about the "Furball" lake area of the DA, there are a few good shots there tho you will find many more highly skilled players in the main arenas. The furball lake area is a small and very predictable area of engagement. There are a lot more variables in the Main arenas with much less a chance of predicting how the fight will advance because of the wider skill levels of the people that are there.

[Warty]

Well I'm sure that's true. I saw someone with a 10 kill sortie in a P47 in the MA the other night. That doesn't happen by accident.

The MA and the DA are so different (to me), they might as well be different games. As you say, I never quite know what I'm going to come across in the MA... is that guy in front of me a rookie, or an ace? Who knows. (and where the **#@ did those 10 cons up there just come from?) In the DA, it's such a small regular crowd that after a while you can make pretty decent guesses as to who is flying what, based on planetype and how they fly. For me, with short attention span, and need to get into as many fights as possible to get back up to speed, the DA works pretty well. It is TERRIBLE for my SA though, no doubt about that. Makes MA nights interesting.

When I start creaming revrand and warroc and co. every flight, I may stop flying in the DA. So, in maybe 15-20 years.

[Kovel]

In my case I break hard with a kind of split-s. It's not a pure split-s. It really works fine if you are flying FWs and Hogs.

But be aware that if you make this movement in planes like let's say spits, adding a nose-low factor can turn into a wider and a more predictable turn.

[Debrody]

In my case I break hard with a kind of split-s. It's not a pure split-s. It really works fine if you are flying FWs and Hogs.

But be aware that if you make this movement in planes like let's say spits, adding a nose-low factor can turn into a wider and a more predictable turn.

it only works if you dont want to put up the fight (building speed for a runaway) or you have many buddies nearby.
Arent you in the LD?
 

[grizz441]

I think a flow chart could best explain what to do here.  Basically as Big Rat said, you always want to turn hard G's (actually if he is quite a bit faster you can turn soft G's and lure him in as mtnman eluded to) with your nose down (nose up/straight flat=probably dead).  If you are low already, it would be best to start flat and then bend low as he gets <1.1k ish.

Basically, If he:
-pulls up and breaks off due to a dangerous downward angle: continue going straight building E, and slowly climbing (if you are low), and if he pursues again, reengage with a downward angle and rinse repeat until he has wasted enough E.
-continues and appears to have impending gun solution: twist your plane 90 degrees right before he fires and pull up or push down (it won't take much) and avoid him (As Soulyss pointed out), build E, rinse repeat as necessary.
-continues and appears to have impending gun solution BUT ALSO appears to have chopped throttle: chop throttle, twist your plane 90 degrees, pull up or push down, and force scissors.

Those 3 conditions are as rigid as they get and do not take into account plane types, pilot, or particular airspeed differences, but understanding those 3 conditions in principle, and then becoming flexible with your approach will allow you to cover your base against a wide variety of attacks.

[icepac]

Adding some rudder to your break will make it harder for him to land deflection shots.

[Ninthmessiah]

Alot of people here are talking about the barrel roll defense from their descriptions.  Want a visualization?  Go find Bunnies in his 109K4.  Bounce him from an e-advantage and watch him "reverse" you.  He'll probably pop u with a tater as you're zooming by and he's on the down swing of his barrel roll.  There's also these vids http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/evarevall.zip although I don't know if they still work.  If they do work, those vids are highly recommended as are a few arse whoopings from Bunnies.

[Big Rat]

Here's another simple rule to add to my earlier ones.

If you are about to get shot doing what you are doing, try something different .  It's funny when you think about it this way, but I see it all the time.  If the guy is about to pull lead on your current turn, and you can see his shot about to happen.  Change the angle of your turn, by rudder,lift vector, throttle, whatever at your disposal.  The key is to do something different.  I can't tell you how many times I have worked with a student and I'm just about in a guns solution and I tell them about it.  Yet they continue the same path and a gun solution is aquired.  They ask what did they do wrong?  My normal answer is "you made my shot easy, by letting the gun solution happen.  I simply had to keep doing what I was doing and you keep doing what you were doing and the solution was going to happen".  To break this habbit, I tell them "shot's coming, do something!".  This helps to make them realize what they are doing is not working, and change it in a hurry.  Some students have a hard time picking up what a good guns solution from the enemy looks like, and this helps with it as well. 

 
BigRat 

[titanic3]

Might be a simple or obvious rule, but an important one:

Keep your eyes on the enemy at all times.

If you see his nose even anywhere near your direction, do something about it. Turn, break, dive, pull up if you have to. Pulling up should be your last resort, because it bleeds your speed, offers a larger target and is very predictable. A dive is most effective because your attacker cannot see under his nose, a dive also gives you the speed needed to avoid other attackers (if there are more than one), or pull up and make an attempt to bring down your attacker if he's still within range.

[titanic3]

Alot of people here are talking about the barrel roll defense from their descriptions.  Want a visualization?  Go find Bunnies in his 109K4.  Bounce him from an e-advantage and watch him "reverse" you.  He'll probably pop u with a tater as you're zooming by and he's on the down swing of his barrel roll.  There's also these vids http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/evarevall.zip although I don't know if they still work.  If they do work, those vids are highly recommended as are a few arse whoopings from Bunnies.

I pull these same tricks on a daily basis. Most of the time anyways. I pay attention to their flight paths and aim slightly above.

[Peyton]

I think a flow chart could best explain what to do here.  Basically as Big Rat said, you always want to turn hard G's (actually if he is quite a bit faster you can turn soft G's and lure him in as mtnman eluded to) with your nose down (nose up/straight flat=probably dead).  If you are low already, it would be best to start flat and then bend low as he gets <1.1k ish.

Basically, If he:
-pulls up and breaks off due to a dangerous downward angle: continue going straight building E, and slowly climbing (if you are low), and if he pursues again, reengage with a downward angle and rinse repeat until he has wasted enough E.
-continues and appears to have impending gun solution: twist your plane 90 degrees right before he fires and pull up or push down (it won't take much) and avoid him (As Soulyss pointed out), build E, rinse repeat as necessary.
-continues and appears to have impending gun solution BUT ALSO appears to have chopped throttle: chop throttle, twist your plane 90 degrees, pull up or push down, and force scissors.

Those 3 conditions are as rigid as they get and do not take into account plane types, pilot, or particular airspeed differences, but understanding those 3 conditions in principle, and then becoming flexible with your approach will allow you to cover your base against a wide variety of attacks.

grizz, Can you clarify?  Let's say for all intents and purposes you are flying level. When you say twist 90 degrees do you mean remain level but your wings are actually "rotated" 90 degrees? So they are no longer parallel with the horizon but you are still flying level? or do you mean rotate 90 degrees so your plane chnages the direction it it traveling in?

[grizz441]

Picture in the most rigid case you are break turning like a describe, your wings are pointing towards the ground and towards the sky. Now picture what your opponent sees as he closes for a shot: he sees your planes full cross section which makes for a high percentage gun solution. When I say rotate 90 degrees and maneuver in a different plane, I mean right as he is about to fire, you rotate so your wings are now parallel with the horizon again. Pulling up or pushing down from this point will usually spoil his gun solution and even force an overshoot.