The Brewster

[FLOTSOM]

another issue with comparing the real characteristics of any plane and the way it acts in game is the difference in fighting styles.

in real life you didnt hang around at alts between 2-5,000 feet as a general rule. you got your donut as high as you could and stayed as fast as possible. speed and alt were always your friend and your advantage to any enemy of inferior attitude or speed. if you get in over your head you want the alt/speed to run or if you cant egress with the plane then you want to bail out with some chance of survival.

in game keep it low alt and mid to slow speed. (this is where the brew excels it has the advantage and the range on those 50's gives it a reasonable chance to down a faster pilot after the over shoot). few have the patience to climb to the nose bleeds and nobody really cares about bailing with a chance of survival cause the ride ends once you have bailed anyways, and if your a runtard by nature then you take anything in game including a hurri or a zero before you take up a brew.

the brew has an envelope of authority in which it excels in game, more than it could ever hope to in real life, we have the ability to practice to exploit this evelope because of limitless lives and countless fresh planes.

we also have the ability to train under these specific circumstances by continuously choosing to fly under these conditions without orders from others to fly differently than what and where we want.....think of how well some players can stall fight with a 51....do you think those who flew the 51, a high alt high speed long range interceptor/escort plane, in WWII would ever be given the opportunity to test the plane under those conditions? 120mph or less under 2,000 feet, or do you think your commanding officer would have screamed bloody murder at the first pilot who attempted to stall fight on the deck? even if the pilot was successful, if he didnt have a damn good reason for doing what he did, ie running from a superior force and getting caught low etc, do you really believe he would be allowed to practice on a continuous and regular basis, enough that is to get truly proficient at it, this type of flying style?

i would love to read any real life AAR from WWII that describes a battle of multiple planes lingering at dirt eating alt at speeds of 250 mph or less while mixing it up with multiple enemy con's....it didnt happen cause every pilot of every nation all state the same rule, alt and speed equals life. a lost wing at 15,000 feet gives you time to bail, a lost wing at 1,500 feet means no one will have to dig a grave for you the planes impact will bury you for them.

[PFactorDave]

I think that what makes folks dubious about the AH flight model for the Brewster is that it seems able to reverse 180 degrees after a merge and still be within 200 yards of the other plane which is still flying straight having not turned at all.

I'm not saying that it is wrong, I don't know.  It feels wrong though, but we don't base flight models on feelings...

[kilo2]

i would love to read any real life AAR from WWII that describes a battle of multiple planes lingering at dirt eating alt at speeds of 250 mph or less while mixing it up with multiple enemy con's....it didnt happen cause every pilot of every nation all state the same rule, alt and speed equals life. a lost wing at 15,000 feet gives you time to bail, a lost wing at 1,500 feet means no one will have to dig a grave for you the planes impact will bury you for them.

Willie Reschkes encounter 3 152 v 2 Tempest low slow on the deck is one from memory.

This is a short exerpt straight from wiki. His book has a longer account.

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

[nrshida]

I really like fighting against the Brewster and these are generally the sort of fights that I enjoy the most.

My only complaint is the existence of the non Finnish skins which belong to a different model of the aircraft if what everyone is saying about it is true.

[FLOTSOM]

Willie Reshkes encounter 3 152 v 2 Tempest low slow on the deck is one from memory.

This is a short exerpt straight from wiki. His book has a longer account.

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

that cool thanx for that...

but the funny thing is that your example IS the exception that proves the rule!!!

anyone who stall fights, rolling scissors or luftburries learns rather quickly that you NEVER or at least as rarely as possible, engage any german iron and then continue to turn left....the torque roll of all german iron will aid the pilot in any maneuver to the left and allow him to gain speed and position on allied rides whose torque roll is to the right. if the tempy had rolled right then his torque roll and handling characteristics would have given him the advantage over the 152 who would have spent his time fighting between stalling out due to throttling down to turn or torque rolling over into the trees....it would have been a much different encounter had the tempy pilot had 100's of hours of stall fighting practice at treetop level in a cartoon environment without risk of death. i only know and understand the basic idea of torque and its positive applications on the german iron because of so many many hours of flying and dieing and then re-uping to try it all again.

[Karnak]

The one aspect of the B-239's performance that I am somewhat skeptical of is its high speed handling.  Most aircraft from WWII had significant handling issues as speed reached past 400mph.  I find it a bit hard to believe that Brewster stumbled on a design in the 1930's that lacked any of those vices.

[Motherland]

The entire war was not fought at 30K over Germany...

[cactuskooler]

i would love to read any real life AAR from WWII that describes a battle of multiple planes lingering at dirt eating alt at speeds of 250 mph or less while mixing it up with multiple enemy con's....it didnt happen cause every pilot of every nation all state the same rule, alt and speed equals life. a lost wing at 15,000 feet gives you time to bail, a lost wing at 1,500 feet means no one will have to dig a grave for you the planes impact will bury you for them.

That reminds me of the real 80th FS's mission on Nov 2, 1943 to Rabaul.  They were escorting low-level B-25s from the 345th BG, so they couldn't be up at altitude with the other P-38 squadrons.  They arrived at the target at 8000ft and saw many Japanese below.  The CO led the squadron down to attack a group of Zeros at 4000ft and started the fight.  I'm too lazy to type up the whole description of the fight, but here's some excerpts from the 8th FG history book that depicts the low-levelness.

"Another Zero closed in on the B-25s at 1000 feet and Schriber gave chase.  The Zero pressed closer to the water - just off the surface before Schriber got into range behind him - and began to turn, apparently trying to force his P-38 pursuer into a dangerous maneuver.  However, the Zero pilot may have been paying too much attention to his adversary because his wing caught the wave tops and he cartwheeled into the water before Schriber could fire a shot.

Schriber was able to climb to 4000 feet and noticed all the Zeros he saw were below him.  He made lazy eight turns and dived at single Zeros whenever they presented a suitable target."

"...At 1000 feet the P-38s engaged the Zeros and a wildly turning fight developed.  DeGraffenreid fired at a Zero on Hailey's tail, then Hailey would fire at another Zero, then both pilots would fend off head on attacks.

One of the Zeros decided to hold course and DeGraffenreid opened  fire at 450 yards.  LT Mark Casper was behind DeGraffenreid's P-38 and saw the two fighters blaze away at each other.  Just as the Lightning and Zero passed, Kasper saw the Zero explode."

"...Continuing down to 900ft, [Hill] saw 15 to 20 Zeros diving then peeling away from the B-25s.  Hill caught one peeling up and fired a long burst from 60 degrees deflection and blew it to pieces.  As Hill pulled up his fighter was hit in the starboard wing and engine, and after he feathered his engine he was accompanied to base by Schriber and Hanover."

The entire war was not fought at 30K over Germany...

[Wmaker]

The one aspect of the B-239's performance that I am somewhat skeptical of is its high speed handling.  Most aircraft from WWII had significant handling issues as speed reached past 400mph.  I find it a bit hard to believe that Brewster stumbled on a design in the 1930's that lacked any of those vices.

From Report No.B.A.1689. (July, 1941), Handling tests on Buffalo (Brewster A.S.430):

Ailerons

Tests in the speed range from approach glide to 400 m.p.h. showed the ailerons to be exceptionally effective: they are crisp and powerful, and the stick forces are not too light at low speeds nor too heavy at the greater speeds. The pilots considered them to be a definite improvement on the Hurricane and Spitfire fabric covered ailerons.

....

Elevator

The elevator was tested at speeds between 80 m.p.h. and 400 m.p.h.; the response and feel were found to be excellent. At 80 m.p.h. the response is exceptionally good and the stick forces are not too small. The weight increases steadily with speed but even at 400 m.p.h. the stick force is not unduly large and the response is still very good.


Pyro has this document.

[Motherland]

that cool thanx for that...

but the funny thing is that your example IS the exception that proves the rule!!!

anyone who stall fights, rolling scissors or luftburries learns rather quickly that you NEVER or at least as rarely as possible, engage any german iron and then continue to turn left....the torque roll of all german iron will aid the pilot in any maneuver to the left and allow him to gain speed and position on allied rides whose torque roll is to the right. if the tempy had rolled right then his torque roll and handling characteristics would have given him the advantage over the 152 who would have spent his time fighting between stalling out due to throttling down to turn or torque rolling over into the trees....it would have been a much different encounter had the tempy pilot had 100's of hours of stall fighting practice at treetop level in a cartoon environment without risk of death. i only know and understand the basic idea of torque and its positive applications on the german iron because of so many many hours of flying and dieing and then re-uping to try it all again.

another issue with comparing the real characteristics of any plane and the way it acts in game is the difference in fighting styles.

in real life you didnt hang around at alts between 2-5,000 feet as a general rule. you got your donut as high as you could and stayed as fast as possible. speed and alt were always your friend and your advantage to any enemy of inferior attitude or speed. if you get in over your head you want the alt/speed to run or if you cant egress with the plane then you want to bail out with some chance of survival.

in game keep it low alt and mid to slow speed. (this is where the brew excels it has the advantage and the range on those 50's gives it a reasonable chance to down a faster pilot after the over shoot). few have the patience to climb to the nose bleeds and nobody really cares about bailing with a chance of survival cause the ride ends once you have bailed anyways, and if your a runtard by nature then you take anything in game including a hurri or a zero before you take up a brew.

the brew has an envelope of authority in which it excels in game, more than it could ever hope to in real life, we have the ability to practice to exploit this evelope because of limitless lives and countless fresh planes.

we also have the ability to train under these specific circumstances by continuously choosing to fly under these conditions without orders from others to fly differently than what and where we want.....think of how well some players can stall fight with a 51....do you think those who flew the 51, a high alt high speed long range interceptor/escort plane, in WWII would ever be given the opportunity to test the plane under those conditions? 120mph or less under 2,000 feet, or do you think your commanding officer would have screamed bloody murder at the first pilot who attempted to stall fight on the deck? even if the pilot was successful, if he didnt have a damn good reason for doing what he did, ie running from a superior force and getting caught low etc, do you really believe he would be allowed to practice on a continuous and regular basis, enough that is to get truly proficient at it, this type of flying style?

i would love to read any real life AAR from WWII that describes a battle of multiple planes lingering at dirt eating alt at speeds of 250 mph or less while mixing it up with multiple enemy con's....it didnt happen cause every pilot of every nation all state the same rule, alt and speed equals life. a lost wing at 15,000 feet gives you time to bail, a lost wing at 1,500 feet means no one will have to dig a grave for you the planes impact will bury you for them.

I guess that the source of this type of thinking is that people constantly have to explain away the poor performance of... well, primarily, the P51 and the P47 at low altitudes, as that's not where these aircraft fought. Or that, in a broader sense, the primary source of our romanticism of air combat is the escort of the bomber streams in 44/45 at 25,000' over Germany. The thing is... the ETO, or the Western Front, or whatever your perspective forces you into the habit of calling it, was not World War II... it was a singular theater with a set of characteristics that, along with the other theaters, were unique to what the circumstances dictated. Aerial combat was not the same over western Europe as it was over Africa as it was over Russia, as it even was over the Pacific... even though you may be led to believe that they all were identical as the classic 'USAAF vs. Luftwaffe' air war is to an extent almost all that's discussed on these boards. However, even in the case of that microcosm, fighting in the weeds did happen. Nap of earth, rolling or flat scissors, lufberries, etc. weren't terms invented here, you know... they were invented by the airmen who used those tactics, primarily invented during the Second World War, and used by airmen of all countries in all theaters.

The thing is, in this discussion, we're not even talking about the 'western' war. We're talking about Russia. 30,000' should not even be in your vocabulary. This war was not focused around strategic air forces in this war that could get up to that altitude, drop their loads and fly home safely. The Eastern war was down and dirty, both the Luftwaffe and the VVS focused on close ground support with divebombers and guns to achieve tactical success. Escorting divebombers that have to get within hundreds of yards of their targets pushes operations down... thousands and thousands of feet. Using fighter aircraft from fighter units to strafe troops (something all sides did) pushes it down further. Sometimes (oftentimes even) aircraft on these missions met others and the result was tree dodging at 120 mph. Yes, it really happened, and above Karelia, or Ukraine, or Eastern Prussia, it happened a lot.

[Karnak]

From Report No.B.A.1689. (July, 1941), Handling tests on Buffalo (Brewster A.S.430):

Ailerons

Tests in the speed range from approach glide to 400 m.p.h. showed the ailerons to be exceptionally effective: they are crisp and powerful, and the stick forces are not too light at low speeds nor too heavy at the greater speeds. The pilots considered them to be a definite improvement on the Hurricane and Spitfire fabric covered ailerons.

....

Elevator

The elevator was tested at speeds between 80 m.p.h. and 400 m.p.h.; the response and feel were found to be excellent. At 80 m.p.h. the response is exceptionally good and the stick forces are not too small. The weight increases steadily with speed but even at 400 m.p.h. the stick force is not unduly large and the response is still very good.


Pyro has this document.

Control forces are only one of the problems that were encountered at higher speeds.  In AH the Brewster can dive well past 500mph and there is little perceptible difference from being at 200mph.  Of prop fighters, only the P-51 shares this trait.

I'll note that the you posted document is not specific about stick forces other than to say the ailerons are a lot better than the cloth ailerons on the Spitfire and Hurricane.  It doesn't indicate that they should be radically better than the metal ailerons on the Spitfire though.

[Wmaker]

Control forces are only one of the problems that were encountered at higher speeds.  

What are these problems that you would expect to be there? It said that the ailerons are effective though out vast speed range which is true in AH.

In AH the Brewster can dive well past 500mph and there is little perceptible difference from being at 200mph.

 

Hmm...again I don't know what exactly you are expecting. I have to say that I disagree that there isn't a clear difference, although as far as virtual combat goes I have only been over 500mph just couple of times. Taking a light plane up to those speeds is huge waste of E.

I'll note that the you posted document is not specific about stick forces other than to say the ailerons are a lot better than the cloth ailerons on the Spitfire and Hurricane.  It doesn't indicate that they should be radically better than the metal ailerons on the Spitfire though.

It says more about the ailerons on other parts of the doc but as far as Spits ailerons go they are known to get stilff at high speeds no matter the material where as Brewster's ailerons stayed light.

Final statement on the controls from the same document:

General

There is no tendency for any control to oscillate snatch or take charge at any speed. The pilots considered that with this aeroplane a definitive advance had been made in fighter controls.

[save]

I've always suspected the light planes accelerates too good in a dive in AH2 . As an example I can stay with a p47 diving for a good couple of seconds in an 190a8, and also in other planes.

Also you kill easy @600 yards out in many planes which only makes it even easier in the dive to kill before you get out of range. In Real Life you did not do that without a good potion of luck.

For an example attacking a buff you normally opened up  at 400 yards with mg151 according to "a view from the cockpit" only the 30mm mk103 allowed you to shoot at 600.

Fighter targets should stay below 300 yards to give a good % of damaging/shooting down the enemy fighter.



We tried these more realistic settings in Warbirds, but they turned back the old settings due to customer complaints

[Motherland]

I think a Lancaster has good control at speed compared to the spitfires and hurricanes with fabric covered control surfaces...

[PR3D4TOR]

Gravity affects all objects equally regardless of weight. Drag is the only limiting factor determining the terminal velocity of a falling object. At the start of a dive a light aircraft will easily be able to follow a heavier aircraft, especially if the former has better power loading. Only as speed picks up and drag increases will the heavier aircraft have an advantage in the dive. That is if the heavier aircraft doesn't also have a significantly worse Cd limiting its terminal velocity.