Author Topic: A good old knife fight  (Read 851 times)

Offline Tom5572

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A good old knife fight
« on: February 19, 2012, 09:10:14 AM »
http://www.mediafire.com/?9xryaitd3pfmts6

I posted this in the general forum but think I should post it again here. I am just a little above average as far as being a stick goes, but sometimes I do okay. The fight starts at about 2:50 and ends at about 9:00. There were several opportunities for shots that neither of us took. I pulled off when he got the collision, not for damage but because it was such a good fight to me, I fealt he deserved to land. I hope this helps you.
80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline Spork

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 04:05:22 PM »
Great film and fight. Especially loved the sportsmanship and respect at the end. Don't see that much anymore.

Question for you pertaining to it, if I may. Do you always immediately go into a full flaps situation in the 38? I was of the impression that full flaps like that would, while tightining your radius, kills your rate? Am I wrong in that statement? If you had kept it at a two knotch fight with the occasional tightining for shots, do you think you would have been "more successful"? ie, a quicker kill?

Sorry for the questions. Trying to learn the 38.

 :salute
Spork
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Offline Tom5572

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 09:48:22 PM »
I probably should not have gotten so hard on the flaps so early. Typically, i use the flaps at the top of the loop, cut throttle, to bring my nose over faster. I try to real flaps in as soon as I am over the top. This was a different case. Oldman is a great pilot and I had my hands full. I do not really have a reason for how I fought. I was trying to do what fealt right at the moment.
80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline Shuffler

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 10:53:19 AM »
Great film and fight. Especially loved the sportsmanship and respect at the end. Don't see that much anymore.

Question for you pertaining to it, if I may. Do you always immediately go into a full flaps situation in the 38? I was of the impression that full flaps like that would, while tightining your radius, kills your rate? Am I wrong in that statement? If you had kept it at a two knotch fight with the occasional tightining for shots, do you think you would have been "more successful"? ie, a quicker kill?

Sorry for the questions. Trying to learn the 38.

 :salute
Spork

For me it depends on what it seems your opponent is going to do. This is why it is sometimes good to faint a hard turn or zoom then do the opposite. Your opponent should be watching you too.

The main thing..... do not do the same thing over and over. The other guy will soon figure it out and make you pay for it.

I will download this film this evening and watch it.
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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Tom5572

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 09:55:43 PM »
I asked guys in my squadron, the 80th Headhunters, to critique my fight.  Here are the responses I got.

From Shuffler:

"I keep my throttle up over the top to carry some e. I come off flaps pretty often when going vert for the same reason. As I zoom up and prepare to roll over I tap a couple of notches to assist getting over. As I come over I judge what he may do next... if he keeps in the turn I kick a notch or two more..... maybe to full. If he takes a long turn like OM did a few times, I may come all the way off flaps or back to a notch or two. It's all about E.


If you had just a bit more e it makes all the difference. Those times he went under you from 9 oclock.... you could have then rolled under (hard left rudder with left aileron) and started picking up his 6. You tried this a couple of time but was slightly too low in E."

From Soulyss:

"I've watched the film a couple times and agree with what Shuffler said about the flaps.  You do raise/retract them during the fight which is a step beyond what many people do (and something I struggled with for a long time), but I would be more aggressive in that regard and raise them quicker.  There's a couple rules of thumb that I keep in the back of my head, one comes from some TA time with Del here and that's during a fight up = flaps up, down = flaps down.  That was really counter intuitive for me as I was doing the opposite but the idea behind it is with the flaps coming in while you're climbing you minimize drag and get every last foot of alt you can before you have to come over the top, on the bottom the flaps help decrease your turn radius which minimizes that forward progression in the scissors.  Think of a scissors fight as a race to the back.  The other thing I keep in my head is flaps tend to pitch you up a bit, they move the nose.  There are times in a fight when I don't need to move the nose, any time I'm not pulling back on the stick, or other wise think I don't need them those flaps come in ASAP.  I have those two ideas in the back of my head during a fight like this, the 2nd one trumps the first if I need to move the nose more I use the flaps regardless.

The example from your film that comes to mind is you are at the top of an immelman a few times and you're trying to roll that beast over and get it up right again an example is shortly after the first merge.  The nose isn't doing anything here and I would have brought the flaps in, especially cause I'm also guessing you use rudder to help the roll.  Between the flaps and the rudder work that's a lot of drag you're adding and in the case of the flaps they're not doing anything for you at that moment.

The other thing I noticed was it looks like you're using combat trim,it's not necessarily a bad thing many very good/successful cartoon pilots use it, however I really don't like it in the 38.  In my mind the 38's biggest asset is it's stability in the vertical and at really low air speed, in those conditions I don't like another automated control system making adjustments to my elevators, I find the 38 more easy to control nose high and low air speed with combat trim OFF.  I have all my trim buttons and combat trim within easy reach on my controllers and I make small corrections to the elevator trim (only one you need to worry about in the 38) or if I get really out of whack I'll toggle CT on and then off again to reset the trim system and get it close instantly.   I use it more in single engine planes because there's more trimming involved what with torque and everything.  If you have the buttons to spare I would try flying with it off and see if you prefer it that way.  Ultimately it's whatever works better for you."



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Offline Spork

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 04:47:25 PM »
Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to write that up and give us insight into the different "views" on how the fight went. It has helped me quite a bit on my thought process going into and during a knife fight.


 :salute
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Spork
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Offline shiv

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 07:32:14 PM »
I asked guys in my squadron, the 80th Headhunters, to critique my fight.  Here are the responses I got.

From Shuffler:

"I keep my throttle up over the top to carry some e. I come off flaps pretty often when going vert for the same reason. As I zoom up and prepare to roll over I tap a couple of notches to assist getting over. As I come over I judge what he may do next... if he keeps in the turn I kick a notch or two more..... maybe to full. If he takes a long turn like OM did a few times, I may come all the way off flaps or back to a notch or two. It's all about E.


If you had just a bit more e it makes all the difference. Those times he went under you from 9 oclock.... you could have then rolled under (hard left rudder with left aileron) and started picking up his 6. You tried this a couple of time but was slightly too low in E."

From Soulyss:

"I've watched the film a couple times and agree with what Shuffler said about the flaps.  You do raise/retract them during the fight which is a step beyond what many people do (and something I struggled with for a long time), but I would be more aggressive in that regard and raise them quicker.  There's a couple rules of thumb that I keep in the back of my head, one comes from some TA time with Del here and that's during a fight up = flaps up, down = flaps down.  That was really counter intuitive for me as I was doing the opposite but the idea behind it is with the flaps coming in while you're climbing you minimize drag and get every last foot of alt you can before you have to come over the top, on the bottom the flaps help decrease your turn radius which minimizes that forward progression in the scissors.  Think of a scissors fight as a race to the back.  The other thing I keep in my head is flaps tend to pitch you up a bit, they move the nose.  There are times in a fight when I don't need to move the nose, any time I'm not pulling back on the stick, or other wise think I don't need them those flaps come in ASAP.  I have those two ideas in the back of my head during a fight like this, the 2nd one trumps the first if I need to move the nose more I use the flaps regardless.

The example from your film that comes to mind is you are at the top of an immelman a few times and you're trying to roll that beast over and get it up right again an example is shortly after the first merge.  The nose isn't doing anything here and I would have brought the flaps in, especially cause I'm also guessing you use rudder to help the roll.  Between the flaps and the rudder work that's a lot of drag you're adding and in the case of the flaps they're not doing anything for you at that moment.

The other thing I noticed was it looks like you're using combat trim,it's not necessarily a bad thing many very good/successful cartoon pilots use it, however I really don't like it in the 38.  In my mind the 38's biggest asset is it's stability in the vertical and at really low air speed, in those conditions I don't like another automated control system making adjustments to my elevators, I find the 38 more easy to control nose high and low air speed with combat trim OFF.  I have all my trim buttons and combat trim within easy reach on my controllers and I make small corrections to the elevator trim (only one you need to worry about in the 38) or if I get really out of whack I'll toggle CT on and then off again to reset the trim system and get it close instantly.   I use it more in single engine planes because there's more trimming involved what with torque and everything.  If you have the buttons to spare I would try flying with it off and see if you prefer it that way.  Ultimately it's whatever works better for you."





Awesome, thanks Tom. Gotta try all that.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 09:23:35 PM by shiv »
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.


Offline Tom5572

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Re: A good old knife fight
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 01:30:37 AM »
You all are welcome. I hope it helps you, I know it helped me.
80th FS "Headhunters"