'Might have' beens or 'real life' arguments...

[FLOTSOM]

in any combat theater if any person(s) refused to follow combat orders given to them at the time of issue and then absconded with armed military equipment then yes absolutely they would be destroyed by their own military.

one of the most destructive forces confronting any military machine is the possible cowardliness of its members. fear is a plague in any military and it must be defeated soundly and decisively immediately, and it must be done in a fashion that will teach the remaining members of the organization that failure to comply with orders, insurrection and/or cowardliness will not be tolerated and will be severely punished.

every routed army starts with the first man who cant control his fear to drop his weapon and run away, anyone watching him will likely soon follow unless a strong hand strangles the infectious fear and turns the men around. to assume that bomber crews did not face the same fears as the ground pounders would be absurd, so of course they were subject to potentially committing the same or very similar offenses.

think of it, if one bomber flies in circles and is allowed to remain out of the fight how long until his squad is spinning their wheels in circles over the arctic....it would be an amazing sight to see 1000 lancs chasing each other in circles all night long instead of facing the risk of facing German 88's and night fighters.

so would i believe that the Brits would dispatch fighters to intercept and return to base, if possible or destroy if not compliant with orders, any lancs who intentionally failed to commit to performing their mission as directed instead choosing to run away and hide.....i would easily believe this could be the case.

did it or did it not happen.....well that i do not know, but i am certain it was absolutely a possible out come should a crew have abandoned its mission.

[LCADolby]

In the RAF they were labelled LMF (Lacking Moral Fibre) and were given the most demeaning jobs available.

[DMVIAGRA]

It's been a tough day at work...

[Guppy35]

It was extremely rare during the war (kind of strange argument) for allied planes to attach allied bombers, aircraft, or ground vehicles. sure it happened but it wasn't deliberate. Deliberate and malicious attacks of "same side" platforms on other same side platforms should be prohibited since it rarely occurred during actual combat. It immediately stopped once the attacker understood he was attacking an ally. We have the best IFF system ever here. When you attack an enemy (red aircraft) you know the type as well as the range. So by the logic of historical accuracy, any allied plane attacking another is in fact abomination and should not be allowed. neh?

Its a game.

Infidelz.

It was NOT extremely rare.   Blue on Blue kills were sadly far more common then ever admitted.  Odds are very high that Guy Gibson of Dambusters fame was killed by a Lanc Rear Gunner when he got too close in his Mossie.

Just finished reading a book on the day W/C Douglas Bader was shot down.  Very detailed research on every bird that went down that day and it's 99 percent certain he was shot down by another Spit.  What's scary is how many Spits were shot down by other Spits that day.  In the craziness of a fight, anything can happen.

Johnny Godfrey of 4th FG fame was shot down by his Wingman

Flotsom, the term used in the RAF was "Lack of Moral Fiber" or LMF.  I don't ever recall reading about planes being intercepted that refused to fly on to the target.  People aborting with mechanical problems that couldn't be replicated on the ground happened, and tended to be one of the early signs.  They were usually removed from the squadrons quickly.  From what I can tell the RAF tended to handle it differently depending on each case too as sometimes guys who'd flown a long time hit their limit.  The pilots and aircrew referred to it as getting the 'twitch'.

When I was researching the Spit XII guys there were a couple of folks mentioned.  One was a guy on his second tour.  He'd survived the FW190 domination flying Spit Vs in 41-42 and was on his second tour flying XIIs.  When they were transitioning he actually went AWOL up into the hills in Wales.  He did come back but he was sure he wasn't going to survive.  And he didn't, killed in October 43.  The other was brought up by a few different pilots to me.  He was a squadron leader, survived the Battle of Britain and Malta as well as Sweeps over France.  They were convinced he was backing out as he'd abort over the Channel often on the way across.  I came across stuff from him, and he talked about constant drop tank feed trouble and the 'lemon' he had for a Spit.  Whose to say what it was and I'd be hard pressed to call him a coward.  He finished up the war in a few different units that taught fighter tactics etc.  

[FLOTSOM]

Flotsom, the term used in the RAF was "Lack of Moral Fiber" or LMF.  I don't ever recall reading about planes being intercepted that refused to fly on to the target.  People aborting with mechanical problems that couldn't be replicated on the ground happened, and tended to be one of the early signs.  They were usually removed from the squadrons quickly.  From what I can tell the RAF tended to handle it differently depending on each case too as sometimes guys who'd flown a long time hit their limit.  The pilots and aircrew referred to it as getting the 'twitch'.
 

as i said, im not saying it did happen as i dont know, i have never researched the issue. my post was to rebut hotards attitude of complete disbelief and condescension of semps post.

if a crew refused to continue on their assigned mission and then refused orders to land i am more than certain that the Brits would have ordered them shot down.

so for semp to say that he read of its happening then i am incline to believe that he did read it. is the author of the book being less than honest.....well that i dont know, but i would believe that semp read it if he says he did.

[B-17]

single engined P-47

As opposed the the quad engine B-47?

[Tank-Ace]

OK, this got off-topic fast.

If you wanna discuss friendly fire, mind starting another topic? I'm seriously interested in what the community has to say about Real Life vs Might Have Been.



Anyway, I agree with Realgood. Rather well put, actually. Considering all the crap we do with out equipment in AH that would be incredibly stupid, borderline-suicidal in the real world, I would say that how often something was used in war is a bit irrelevent.

It will remain pretty damn irrelevent untill someone can give an example of a single Il-2 killing a Panzer IV H with guns alone, and give sources/proof for that example.

[Butcher]

My personal opinion is that if a load out has documentation that it was used in combat it should be allowed in game. Additionally (again this is just my opinion) I think factory documented field modifications or kits should also be allowed. I find HTC's current position on field mods a bit unusual given what we currently have in game. 

I think that a perked ordinance system like what Karnak mentioned would be a necessary addition.

This is what TankAce doesn't understand, his view is the P51's bomb and rockets were "Rare" except they were USED in combat, where the C.205's Bomb option was not used in combat (far as much documents I can find).

What I tried to point out to help him understand is, just because the P-51's bomb/rocket combo was rare, it doesn't mean it wasn't used, the mission of the P51 was as a long range escort fighter, it had no need to carry ords as the P-47 and P-38 were religated to do the ground attacks instead of the P-51.

The C.205's carried like 300lbs of bombs/fuel - except the bombs were never used, I don't even recall if they were ever fitted - from all the books I read I surely would of came across it. And the drop tanks were available and stored, never used because they were intercepting close to the airfield, and not needed the extra fuel.

I draw the line between "used in combat" and prototype, what he's suggesting is to add a bomb to the C.205 - however none except prototypes ever carried them. Perhaps it could be added as a perk option, I would certainly be against it.

As for a perk ordnance option I certainly agree with it, if it costs me 2 perks to use DT's on a C.205 then so be it.

[AWwrgwy]

Back off topic.

Curtiss Hawks fought Curtiss Warhawks and Grumman Wildcats.


 



wrongway

[Nathan60]

OK, this got off-topic fast.

[Arlo]

Fast forward to Korea and they were lugging bombs and rockets or napalm and rockets all the time as they were based much closer to the action.

Wouildn't they also have been relegated to the attack role because jets were taking over the fighter role (though jets were also beginning to take over the attack role, as well).? A lot of 51s and Corsairs were there to fill gaps while the jets were coming up in the world.

[Tilt]

Back on the OP.

Can any one find me a single account of a La7 using 100kg bombs in a ground attack role.

Yes the La7 wing (like the L5FN before it) had bomb mounting points for 50kg & 100kg GP bombs and the bomb release lever was duly mounted on the La7 controlstick.

However I have never read a single account of the actual use of an La7 in such a role where it deployed such bombs. Much more common was its role as an interceptor/ escort.

In this light one could look at the C202/5 and the La7 similarly and argue that if the one is modelled with bombs so should the other.

[MAINER]

(Image removed from quote.)

 

[Shuffler]

The Brits used their first 51s for ground attack as they did not have good high alt performance. Depending on target distance they could carry bombs and rockets.


Later the mustang was used for ground attack in Korea. They paid dearly because of their suceptable radiators.

[RichardDarkwood]

Do you think he's right? Do you think I'm right? Does it not mater if combinations of loadouts were rare, as long as the individual loadout options were in wide-spread use? Are the situations completly different? Is it a bit sketchy? Is he full of crap? Am I? Are we both so full of it, that our eyes are brown?

The Me-262 carried rockets during the war......

Does the deuce carry them in game.......?