Author Topic: F/A-18E vs. F-35C  (Read 8150 times)

Offline Wildcat1

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F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« on: February 28, 2012, 12:12:38 PM »
Hi all, my apologies if this would be better off in the o'club.

I realize the F-35 is not replacing the super hornet in the navy, rather replacing the legacy hornets. I also realize the F-35 and F/A-18E will have two different roles in the navy, but my question is would replacing the hornets with F-35s really be more effective than upgrading the hornet fleet to super hornets?

Sure, the JSF has some real advantages over the super hornet, such as low-observability, internal weapon stores, AESA radar and a more efficient engine, but there are also some stark disadvantages.

-the JSF has low-observability features, but the huge engine with a huge afterburner will light up on IR trackers
-the fact that it is a single engine aircraft could limit It's capabilities in carrier operations.
-the JSF has a thrust/weight ratio of 0.94 while the super hornet has a thrust/weight ratio of 1.15. This means that the super hornet is better in the vertical, can sustain sharper turns without losing energy, and recover from stall speeds quicker.
-the substantial cost of this project makes the unit cost of the JSF very high. Around 3 super hornets can be bought for one JSF.

What do you think would be the Navy's best option?

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Offline titanic3

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 12:33:26 PM »
Cheapest options? Drones.
Most effective option? Upgrade the FA18 even more.
Balanced option? Mix of F35 and FA18.
Most expensive option? Convert F22s into carrier capable planes.

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Offline curry1

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 12:38:26 PM »
F-22s are probably going to end up being cheaper than the F-35s lol their price is rising and rising...
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Offline Noir

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 12:55:28 PM »
buy raphales :P
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Krusty

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 12:58:44 PM »
The super hornet is a dead end. You might as well claim that upgrading F-15s would make them a viable replacement for F-22s because they cost less.

Yes, maybe they will, but they still won't have the capabilities and performance, nor will they have the integrated features/functions that the new airframe has which will allow it to receive upgrades for 50 years to come.

Offline Baumer

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 01:02:23 PM »
Given the ongoing problems getting the F-35C carrier qualified, this may be a moot discussion. There was a 100% failure rate in the last rolling hook engagement test in front of Pentagon inspectors. Depending on who's blog you read, it's either a minor problem or a major one so the next few months will be interesting.

Here's a link to a good description of the problem.
http://rt.com/news/f-35-design-flaw-917/

Here's the text of the problem.

"A design flaw in the US Marine Corps version of the F-35 Lightning II, which prevents it from landing on an aircraft carrier, could see the highly advanced vehicle grounded indefinitely.

­The F-35C, also known as the carrier variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (CV JSF), is one of several fifth-generation fighters developed under the JSF program. New documents reveal that the aircraft has a crucial flaw, which could prevent it from ever being able to land on a vessel.

A Pentagon Concurrency Quick Look Review (QLR) of November 2011 says that all eight run-in/rolling tests undertaken at NAS Lakehurst in August 2011 to see if the F-35C could catch a wire with the tail hook have failed. The tail hook is meant to catch one of several wires stretched across the deck, after which a special arresting engine kicks in to quickly slow the aircraft down.

In the case of the F-35C, the decades-old trick doesn’t work. The tail hook is located too close to the main landing gear, so the springs supporting the arresting cable don’t have enough time to raise it after the wheels run over it for the hook to engage.

In fact, the F-35C has the shortest distance between the tail hook and the wheels among a dozen past and current aircraft deployed by the US Navy, the report says, making the CV JSF “an outlier.”

The flaw seems to be inherent to the design, and engineers simply cannot relocate the hook without a major overhaul of the construction, which is likely to be too costly for today’s cost-conscious Pentagon. At the same time, Lockheed Martin, which produces the F-35, said as early as 2007 that all variants of the vehicle were “mature and ready for production.” "

« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 01:04:23 PM by Baumer »
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Offline Baumer

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 01:07:53 PM »
The current proposed solution is to modify the design of the hook to keep the hook point closer to the deck and below the center-line of the arresting cable.



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Offline Krusty

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 01:12:38 PM »
That's very old news, and the article biased. There's a ton of press trashing this thing at any chance they can. They conveniently forget other super-successful aircraft with very long careers that had their own developmental problems.


F-8 Crusaders spinning into the water on takeoff, anybody? Surely an inherrent design flaw, unfixable, right? Nope... Put a couple fins under the back end and you have "The Last of the Gunfighters" that saw service with the French until just recently.

What plane was it where they made the catapult tow bar too short to reach the actual deck? F-14?

These things happen. They get fixed. It's far from an unfixable problem, and they could easily move the hook if they needed to. It would just show up on successive production models, not existing ones. They are incorporating TONS of fixes to the production lines as they continue these flight tests. The production models later on will actually have dozens upon dozens of enhancements and improvements, from the internal wing braces that connect to the fuselage, to certain types of skin construction at points that flex, etc.

Offline Baumer

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 01:34:41 PM »
LOL Krusty you are so funny some times!  :rofl

There are legitimate concerns about the F-35 program and it's ability to meet it's objectives in a cost effective manner. I have a relative who's a former professor of Acquisition at the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, not to mention her 30 years as a Naval Officer. So I tend to believe her opinion about how the government (and the Navy) is viewing the procurement process.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating going with the Super Hornet only that the F-35C is facing some significant challenges to getting acceptance. If you look at the history of joint service aircraft development you can see that there have been few good programs and several bad one's. Not that it can't be done, but for every F-4 program there are 2 F-111 programs.     
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Offline Krusty

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »
There ARE concerns, yes... But who is concerned and why? That's another matter... Most of the concerns were brought about by the folks running the oversight rather than the aircraft itself. I won't stir up a mess about the size and scope of the project and contracts, etc, but a lot of the delays have been self-inflicted by the same folks complaining of delays.

Offline Rob52240

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2012, 01:59:36 PM »
buy raphales :P

LOL didn't you see what happened when the USAF tried to buy some airbus refueling planes?
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012, 02:07:33 PM »
has any mil aircraft ever come in on time and on budget? or any mil procurement? or for that matter, any big govt project? :headscratch:



edit: I might put a bet on the RN navalising the typhoon at this rate :bhead
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012, 02:28:28 PM »
has any mil aircraft ever come in on time and on budget? or any mil procurement? or for that matter, any big govt project? :headscratch:



edit: I might put a bet on the RN navalising the typhoon at this rate :bhead

I think during the war as well as some Skunk Works projects.  Anyone know of any others?
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »
hehe skunkworks ... I'm not sure black budget projects count since, well, we dont know what the budgets or deadlines are :headscratch:
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 02:56:15 PM »
hehe skunkworks ... I'm not sure black budget projects count since, well, we dont know what the budgets or deadlines are :headscratch:

Do you know of any other way the govt ever gets anything done or paid for on time?
Back when I was a mechanical contractor we would usually be the only bidder on federal projects because it took at least 12 months after the agreed upon date to get paid.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.