Author Topic: F/A-18E vs. F-35C  (Read 9674 times)

Offline MK-84

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2012, 07:37:31 PM »
Ask any surviving allied tanker what he'd rather be in...

"Tiger"

I'd rather be in the sherman with 10x the numbers behind me...thats what he's getting at

Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2012, 07:42:33 PM »
Some folks don't know what a malcontent and troll Bodhi is. They're new and haven't had the displeasure to experience it.

I've been following a number of discussion threads on the F-35 in other forums and some of them quite lengthy (90 pages+) and some including current pilots (one forum has a current day F-22 pilot that chimes in at times). The majority of all the negative press on this plane is unjustified. There are a lot of egos being bruised, a lot of palms being greased, a lot of politicians posturing for their states (which is false posturing since THEIR STATE is creating jobs by helping build the thing) and the end result is the ****-storm of negative press. None of it means a hill of beans.

This WILL be our frontline fighter for a generation to come. That's already been decided. The rest is just Fox News and BS posturing. Don't believe me? Do the research yourself. Just don't take Bodhi's comments to mean anything.

Here in Boise all the Bone-Heads that bought property off the end of an existing airport runway are now screaming how the increased noise of the F-35 will ruin their property value and quality of living. When I was a kid we lived a few miles from Williams Field Apache Junction Arizona. Back then the T-38's et al could freely fly over and sonic boom us without fear of public out cry. We all understood why they were training. As a kid i loved it. Made me dream of "The Right Stuff" guys we had been watching on TV & everyone was intrigued by what those brave men were accomplishing. We actually saw the X-15 fly over more than once. Good memories! Now people just yawn and gripe about selfish, inconsequential, Me Me BS!
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2012, 07:52:58 PM »
Some folks don't know what a malcontent and troll Bodhi is. They're new and haven't had the displeasure to experience it.

I've been following a number of discussion threads on the F-35 in other forums and some of them quite lengthy (90 pages+) and some including current pilots (one forum has a current day F-22 pilot that chimes in at times). The majority of all the negative press on this plane is unjustified. There are a lot of egos being bruised, a lot of palms being greased, a lot of politicians posturing for their states (which is false posturing since THEIR STATE is creating jobs by helping build the thing) and the end result is the ****-storm of negative press. None of it means a hill of beans.

This WILL be our frontline fighter for a generation to come. That's already been decided. The rest is just Fox News and BS posturing. Don't believe me? Do the research yourself. Just don't take Bodhi's comments to mean anything.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2012, 08:46:26 PM »
I'd rather be in the sherman with 10x the numbers behind me...thats what he's getting at

The issue is we don't nessicarily have to make that choice. Would you rather be in an M4 with 10x the number behind you, a Panther fighting at a rough 4:1 numbers disadvantage....... Or in an advanced US design like the M26 thats comperable to the Panther, but more expensive than the M4, with 6x the number behind you.


And I'm still for an extensive upgrade package to extend the service life of our more numerous and cheaper, if older, airframes. A bit like asking if you want to be in the M26 with 6x the numbers, a Panther fighting 4:1 disadvantage, or an upgunned and armored M4 with 9x the numbers.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:49:41 PM by Tank-Ace »
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Stoney

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2012, 09:22:19 PM »
Its not so much about the quality of the tanks.  Its about our ability to sustain them in the field.  That was the German's weakness, not being outnumbered.  I'll take 1 M1A1 versus 4 T-72s any day of the week in a match, but can we sustain F-22's and F-35's long enough to cull through the lower quality opposition?  Its not just about getting missiles down range.
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Offline curry1

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2012, 09:26:25 PM »
Just like a lot of things in life, everyone wants it perfect now now now. Not gonna happen. We are doing things with the F-35 that have never been done before. This will take time to do. The F-35C will be the first truely capable Stealth plane launched off the carrier. A amazing concept. but its going to take time to get everything correct. Things with the F-35 are not the same with conviential aircraft. So it will take time to modify and adjust to get it to work right.

The F-35 is no different from other aircraft in that it has growing pains. Out here at Edwards, we are hitting test points everyday and bringing this plane closer and closer to seeing service. Some days are good, some days are bad. My plane has been down over a month due to mods, but they want to make sure its all good before they give us the flight clearance we need to fly again. Who knows when we get it.

In the end, I guess I am saying just sit back and watch what is happening with the program. Watching a Aircraft mature is quite intresting to see.

My plane (AF-03) in formation with AF-02 and AF-04

(Image removed from quote.)

Do those f-35s have their RAM on?  Seems like you can see a lot of rivets and seams.

Guess it isn't needed in basic flight-test.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 09:32:19 PM by curry1 »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2012, 09:52:33 PM »
I've got very few concerns about the plane's development problems as every single airplane ever built had to overcome problems....that's why it's called development. Flight test is specifically intended to uncover problems so they can be fixed.  Sure, lots make a living by criticizing things that aren't quite right but then those same people usually don't understand what they're talking about and many have other motives.  Burning holes in decks or a skipping tailhook sound like big deals to folks that don't understand the complexities and realities of aircraft development but these types of problems are almost always solvable either through engineering or procedure.  Remember the original Hornet's cracking tails?  Fixed with doubler plates at the fin root and strakes added to the leading edge extension.  The F-14B/D burning holes in jet blast deflectors?  Fixed by simply not using afterburner during a cat launch.  Skipping tailhook?  I'm guessing it'll be solved by some combination of these rather mundane fixes:  redesign of the hook point, lengthen the entire tailhook assembly, adjust/change the tailhook dashpot, or change the approach speed to change the approach AoA and hook to eye distance.  Will it cost money to fix?  Sure it will but there is no such thing as a perfect airplane leaping directly from the drawing board to our CVN decks. 

Unfortunately, I have far more confidence in the ability of American companies to produce superior products than I have in any American politician's ability to make rational decisions. The grim reality is that DoD is 19% of the national budget but is taking 50% of the cuts mandated by sequestration.  We're already losing one CVN (technically not "officially" gone but for all intents and purposes it is) and they're rescheduling the production of new CVNs from one every four years to one every five.  This will actually drive up the cost not only of the CVNs but of all the other ship work being done by our now very limited shipbuilding capabilities.  In addition to the loss of CVNs they're already accelerating the retirement of many of our other ships as well as yet more reductions in force.

Of course, there's the little detail that the actual cost of the "low end" F-35 is now pretty much equal to the "high end" F-22 at about $200M per copy.  Did the program guys and contractors lie when they first started development of this plane?  No, probably not, but then they originally costed the thing out based on amortizing the development costs across the thousands of airplanes the government said it would buy. Do the program guys and contractors have a problem admitting the hole they're in?  Yes, absolutely.  Think of it this way.  You're a contractor that sells a program to the government at a fair price but then the government decides it needs to buy condoms for union workers building unprofitable electric cars that nobody wants so it reneges on the deal and wants now to just buy half as many planes and, OBTW, they also want you to add in new capabilities X, Y, and Z all at the original fair price.  You now have three choices; either eat the cost increases (which is nearly impossible with a program of this size), pass on the price increase to the government (and likely be accused of being a war profiteer and get the whole program cancelled), or you fudge and hope you get far enough into the program that it'll be considered "too big to fail."  That is the unfortunate way that things are when dealing with the US Government.  There are liars and cheaters on both sides of this equation but in my experience most of the problems are started by the government (i.e., politicians) that thinks a contract isn't binding but merely a list of suggestions (like the Constitution) while the defense contractors get far more than their fair share of the blame.

If Mace were making the call we'd be buying fewer cell phones for poor people and instead bite the bullet and continue with the F-35 but the bottom line here is the Navy probably isn't going to be able to afford it.  I'd also guess the Marines are in the same boat with the F-35B.  UAV's can't do the job and won't be able to for any reasonably foreseeable future so those of you suggesting that'll solve the problem can drop that idea.  Try to do as much with a UAV as you can with a manned airplane and guess what?  The development cost and price of each UAV will be close to the manned airplane although you do save some of the costs related to aircrew.  Even there the savings are exaggerated since you still need to train the UAV operators to fly and fight even if they're not sitting in a real cockpit. 

Unless something major happens in the government such as eliminating the $1 Trillion program known as Obamacare we're going to be buying "free" condoms rather than new jets.
Mace
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Offline stealth

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2012, 10:52:23 PM »
Sadly this poll will become useless probably by the end of 2012, because they'll be more remote controlled X-47 jet fighters than 109s made during WWII.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2012, 11:11:43 PM »
I'd rather be in the sherman with 10x the numbers behind me...thats what he's getting at

I wouldn't. During the D-Day invasion two lone Tigers, cut off from their retreat, destroyed more than 80 attacking Shermans. They surrendered when they ran out of ammo. The Ronson/Tommycooker/rolling coffin/Zippo was a deathtrap against German armor.
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Offline curry1

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2012, 11:23:01 PM »
Sadly this poll will become useless probably by the end of 2012, because they'll be more remote controlled X-47 jet fighters than 109s made during WWII.

Good lord, no.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2012, 12:03:54 AM »
Mace,
That is a great reply.  I think some in this thread could learn from it with regards to informed opinion and conjecture.

While I agree that the military deserves the absolute best, I feel that we have gone beyond what we truly need as a free society.  Please do not take that as support of cuts in any way shape or form as proposed.  It is meant that our country needs more bang for our bucks and we need to be cost effective.  Absolutely, our domestic expenditures are beyond ridiculous  and out of control and they need to be reigned in, unfortunately we can't discuss what we think here as it becomes political and crosses that line, frankly, I miss the old boards, but hey, I don't own this playground. 

What I think we need on the F-35 is a breather, and a realistic assessment from those in charge of the program with real consequences in they are wrong.  What is the realistic cost of delivery per unit?  This is a very responsible request as many nations have spent tremendous amounts of development capital based upon a unit cost that was far below what is currently advertised.  As the per unit delivery cost rises, more nations are going to be forced to scale back acquisitions which in turn is going to drive up per unit costs.  Where does that end?  How much will we realistically spend per unit?  Is 300 million per unit a more realistic cost?  At that point is it not better to simply continue a scaled development of the F-35 and bring back the F-22 at a much cheaper per unit cost?  I know the roles are different and the F-22 is not navalized (sp?) but at what point do we risk insolvency of the DoD budget to support the F-35 along with all the rest of the programs?
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Offline Stoney

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2012, 12:06:02 AM »
I wouldn't. During the D-Day invasion two lone Tigers, cut off from their retreat, destroyed more than 80 attacking Shermans. They surrendered when they ran out of ammo. The Ronson/Tommycooker/rolling coffin/Zippo was a deathtrap against German armor.

And yet, they still lost the war because they would have things happen, like running out of ammo.  A quality tank/plane is only as good as your ability to sustain it.  My point, ultimately, is that if the darn things get so expensive that we can only buy half the number of airplanes to "replace" the ones we have now, we have just a bit more than 50% of the original capability, i.e. a more capable aircraft, but half the number to fly.  Is one squadron of 12 F-35s as good as two squadrons of 24 F-18Es?  Maybe in a straight up dog-fight--I don't know.  But when you consider the logistics of them, and only having half the squadrons available to deploy, I think there's a point of diminishing returns in there.  
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2012, 10:22:11 AM »
The Germans had no commonality at all in their armed forces; hundreds of different vehicles and different calibers. The F-35 is the exact opposite of this, providing a high degree of commonality between Air Force, Navy and Marine. The German army was strangled by air interdiction. Without it they would have thrown the allied armies back into the English Channel. Had the Allies had one tenth the number of a similar tank to the Tiger or Panther rather than using sergling Shermans they would have won more decisively and with far fewer crew casualties.

This is the last forum I'd expect to find advocates of the "quantity over quality" argument.

The net result of all of the deficiencies of allied armor was that advancing was much slower and more expensive in terms of tanks and infantry than it otherwise would have been. Five hundred burning British tanks at the end of the failed operation Goodwood made dramatic testimony to the disadvantages that inferior tanks brought on to the allies. Total allied armour causalities in Normandy were running at three times the German total. The tankers kept fighting but costs were extremely high and the men were losing confidence in their tanks, despite usually having superior numbers, artillery and air support.

"As we go now each man has resigned himself to dying sooner or later because we don’t have a chance against the German tanks. All of this stuff that we read about German tanks being knocked out makes us sick because we know what prices we have to pay in men and equipment to accomplish this."

Eventually the allies blasted their way out of Normandy with the aid of 3,300 planes dropping a total of 14,000 tons of bombs in three hours, literally obliterating anything in the path of the advance with a tonnage of bombs only exceeded by Hiroshima.  Advantages in numbers, a willingness to take losses, and massive advantages in artillery, air support, fuel and supplies made it possible for the allies to advance in Western Europe and eventually win. However the inability to produce a tank that could take on the panzers on even terms and the terrible causalities that this caused in men and machines is something that should not be forgotten.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2012, 10:42:02 AM »
The thing about quantity over quality as an argument is that it relies on the originating force being okay with losing thousands and thousands to get 1 objective. Stalin had no qualms with this, for example. In WW2 spin it how you will, we had the same mentality. "Throw men and equipment at it and hope they job gets done before you run out" doesn't work in the modern world -- at least not with military endavours.

The focus has changed from replacing troops/men to RETAINING troops/men. This is smart as it banks on the combined education they gather as they serve, and reduces overhead/training for replacements to fill in for casualties.


Philosophically speaking, that is...

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F/A-18E vs. F-35C
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2012, 01:22:14 PM »
the swarm of drones scenario is exactly why the 35 will be useful in a way that all the other conventional fighters cannot be - guns and missiles will be almost useless against them, but a 35 with a DE weapon could keep swatting them out the sky til its loiter time is up ...
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