Looking for info/More info found

[DREDIOCK]

Back in 2007 I posted this looking for more info on my mother in laws brothers loss in WWII as a tail gunner
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=202820.0

Well just uncovered more info. Unfortunately it is copy protected so I cant just C&P here
http://adoptiegraven-database.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7692:sorbino-joseph-g&catid=63:american-war-cemetery-margraten-s&Itemid=147

Now we know what type of plane (but not what model) as a FW 190. the event that took place according to an eyewitness report And pretty much the exact cause of death as being cannon rounds from a 190.

Can anyone else nail down a list of possible pilots who may have been the FW pilot who claimed the kill on this?

[DREDIOCK]

Lists place of death as Hagen n the wesser. Which I found on google maps.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=hagen+germany+map&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1280&bih=830&prmd=imvns&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=NENdT5mjC4Tv0gGA-o3qBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CDIQ_AUoAg

Im guessing the german fighters had to be stationed near this area

[Guppy35]

381st BG Reunion in August at the AF Museum Dred.  Might be worth your while

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44816&sid=4d4db1a46487531c43d614a2a2474876

[Guppy35]

Looking through the JG1 history, it says  Major Heinz Bar claimed a B-17, Hauptmann Hermann Segatz claimed a 17 and Oberfeldswebel Rudolf Hubl claimed a 17.  Not a lot of details though.

The JG300 history says  Lt. Gehard Barsdorf shot down a 17 south of Gottington, Germany.


332 German fighters sortied against 255 B17s and their escorts.  Fighters claimed 38 B17s out of 41 lost.

[kilo2]

Heinrich Wurzer claimed a B17 on that date. He flew for I./JG-302 and claimed the b17 west of magdeburg.

Although he most likely was flying a G6.

The report claims the B17s were un-escorted at the time.

[kilo2]

 Although they did have 190s as well for Stab which he was part of.

[DREDIOCK]

I think I may have found a good lead here. Werner Gerth of Sturmst. 1 Claimed his first B-17 victory on Feb 22 1944 over Bielefeld.

Compare the location of Bielefeld to the location on google maps. its just northeast of and certainly within range of Hagen
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Bielefeld,germany&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mF5dT-H8BYrz0gGGuYmSDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAg

[Guppy35]

You can download the Missing Aircrew Report on Fold3.com btw.  The text on the page you noted is from that.  The crew list is there and a map showing where the crash was etc.

Turns out I had the 381st BG history on my shelf.  The curse of so many books over the years is I forget what I have sometimes!  Nothing specific written about the Downey crew other then this bit in the list of aircraft lost.



But I thought this was interesting.  No name on this Fort, but it's the one your relative went down in.  Note the caption and the mention of it's loss on 2/22/44 with the Downey crew.  Might get someone to skin it for you with this much info and no nose art to worry about.

[Guppy35]

Got the MACR myself to save you the time.  Here ya go

[DREDIOCK]

Wow thank you!

Note the final location on the map and compare is to google maps.

Bielefeld,germany

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Bielefeld,germany&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mF5dT-H8BYrz0gGGuYmSDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAg

We have a match. And its just south of another name mentioned in other records I had found "bunde"

Although it may never truly be known for certain
So far it looks like the leading candidate for the german pilot would be Werner Gerth of Sturmstaffel 1 as it fits both the date and location. The time is a little off though but within reasonable proximity. Gerth claimed a time of 13:20. A time also noted on the map. But its down time is listed at 14:09.
Is his a reasonable proximity? Is it possible a time zone difference as they each would have been using their own time?
I just looked. near as I can tell there is indeed a 1 hour time zone difference between England and Germany.
Anyone confirm this?

 If it were he. It would mark his first of 20 17's he downed

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gerth.html

Bout the only thing we dont know is if he was flying a 190 and what type that day
Anyone concur?

Seems there is a book out " Sturmstaffel 1: Reich Defence 1943-1944: the War Diary"
Anyone have it?

[clerick]

Got the MACR myself to save you the time.  Here ya go

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This is fascinating! I'm curious, why does part of the radio operator's name appear to be redacted? Also, the RO and the two waist gunners are listed as "RTD" and "EUS(?)" what does that mean?

[Shane]

This is fascinating! I'm curious, why does part of the radio operator's name appear to be redacted? Also, the RO and the two waist gunners are listed as "RTD" and "EUS(?)" what does that mean?

those three were POWs - probably a code associated with that.

[icepac]

Drediock on the way to germany to settle a score?

[Melvin]

Drediock on the way to germany to settle a score?

That's funny. 

On a serious note, this is an amazing thread.

[Guppy35]

EUS is evacuated United Statese.  RTD is returned to something or other.  Can't remember it at the moment.