Looking for info/More info found

[PFactorDave]

RTD is returned to something or other.  Can't remember it at the moment.

Returned to Duty I believe.

[Guppy35]

Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type.  German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes.  US bomber guys tended to see 190s  

[kilo2]

Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type.  German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes.  US bomber guys tended to see 190s  

Yes.

Looks like it was hit on the way to the target. Counts out the JG-302 pilot as he hit them egressing back west.

[DREDIOCK]

Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type.  German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes.  US bomber guys tended to see 190s  

Agreed. But in this case it seems to fit. No? Or at least make Gertht eh leading candidate

After you take into account that Gerth would have been reporting in his local time. And the allied would have been keeping track in theirs.
There is only an 11 minute discrepancy.

The location is near exact. The date is the same. And possibly the plane type.

So far I havent been able to find any other rmatches to the area and time. But would be keenly interested if anyone finds anything.

[Guppy35]

Sounds like you are on the right track.  I just didn't want the plane type to possibly push you away from the pilot that seems to fit if it turned out he was in a 109.  The time and place would be the more important info.  Keep us up to date if and when you learn more.  I'm going to keep looking if that's ok with you.

[MiloMorai]

LW B-17 claims

U.S. VIII Bomber Command: OSCHERSLEBEN, ASCHERSLEBEN, HALBERSTADT,
BERNBURG, SCHWEINFURT, GOTHA,
AALBORG
JaFü I. Jagdkorps/Lfl. Reich:

22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve] 12.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 HSS 􀂅 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m. 12.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58
22.02.44 Fw. Baunicke 5./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 westl. Freising: 6.000 m. 12.45- 13.00 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.56
22.02.44 Oblt. Kurt Senoner 1./JG 5 B-17 􀂅 bei Mühldorf: 7.000 m. [Bayern] 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Ltn. Hans Ehlers: 37 3./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/JP : 6.500 m. [Coesfeld-Dülmen] 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.13
22.02.44 Fhj-Ofw. Alfred Müller: 5 4./JG 27 P-47 􀂅 Raum Hagen-Wuppertal: 6.000 m. 12.55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.207
22.02.44 Major Erich Gerlitz Stab I./JG 5 B-17 􀂅 bei Mühldorf: 6.100 m. [Bayern] 12.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Oblt. Fritz Stehle 5./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 südl. Dachau: 6.000 m. [Bayern] 13.00-10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57

22.02.44 Ltn. Johannes Jung 6./JG 27 B-17 􀂅 KP-39: 3.500 m. [Recklinhausen] 13.12 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.73

22.02.44 Ltn. Rudi Dassow 4./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 Bielefeld: 6.000 m. 13.35-50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.96
22.02.44 Oberst Walter Oesau: 111 Stab/JG 1 B-17 􀂅 10 km. N. Thier: 1.000 m. [Gütersloh] 13.36 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Oblt. Paul Bley 9./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 - 13.40 Film C. 2031/I Abgelehnt
22.02.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 􀂅 Bielefeld: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
22.02.44 Gefr. Rudolf Pintsch: 2 11./JG 3 B-17 HSS 􀂅 KN-96: 8.000 m. [E. Geldern] 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Ofw. Robert Roller: 13 6./JG 3 B-17 􀂅 JT-2 or FT-2: 7.000 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.70
22.02.44 Oblt. Rudolf Klemm 7./JG 54 B-17 􀂅 JT-42: 7.500 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 234
22.02.44 Maj. Günther Specht: 30 Stab II./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 Blomberg-Detmold: 7.100 m. 13.42-55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.21
22.02.44 Uffz. see 3/2 2./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 HT-52: 7.000 m. [Hameln] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
22.02.44 Uffz. Siegfried Teske 8./ZG 26 B-17 􀂅 - 13.50 Film C. 2031/I Noch aussteht
22.02.44 Fw. Emil Hecker 9./JG 54 B-17 􀂅 JU-65: 6.500 m. [Holzminden-Einbeck] 13.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
22.02.44 Oblt. Heinz Knoke: 21 5./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 ost S/HT: 7.000 m. [Raum Hameln] 13.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.192
22.02.44 Uffz. Walter Uecker 9./JG 54 B-17 􀂅 JU: 6.000 m. [Holzminden-Einbeck] 13.55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.200
22.02.44 Uffz. Kabitz [sic] 7./JG 54 B-17G 􀂅 JB: 6.500 m. [Bad Harzburg-Halberstadt] 14.03 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.244
22.02.44 Ltn. Gerhard Bärsdorf II./JG 300 B-17 􀂅 2 km. S. Gifhorn: 7.000 m. 14.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.24

22.02.44 Oblt. Christmann: 5 11./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 GQ: no height [Hopsten-Bramsche] 14.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
22.02.44 Fw. Ritschel: 5 11./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/GA-7: 6.000 m. [Peine] 14.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Uffz. Merbeth: 1 11./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/GS: no height [Lübbecke] 15.00 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.8
22.02.44 Uffz. Kirchner: 2 11./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/JR-1: 6.000 m. [W. Gütersloh] 15.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 􀂅 IR-66: 5.500 m. [W. Gütersloh] 15.07 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 􀂅 JR-66: no height [W. Gütersloh] 15.09 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.14

22.02.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 10 3./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/NR S.E. Siegen: 7.000 m. 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.61
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Dreizeher: 3 1./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 östl. Siegen: 7.000 m. 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Fw. Neuendorf: 4 2./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 NR-1 to NQ-3: 7.000 m. [Siegen area] 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Fw. Franz Steiner: 9 2./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 NR-8: 7.000 m. [S.W. Siegen] 15.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.100
22.02.44 Fw. Heinz Stöwer: 7 3./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 NR-8: 7.000 m. [S.W. Siegen] 15.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.3
22.02.44 Ltn. Erich Dobrick: 6 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/NO N.W. Eitorf: 7.000 m. 15.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.151

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:

22.02.44 Ofw. Adlof Glunz: 55 5./JG 26 B-17 􀂅 Gahlen 7 km. W. Dorsten: 7.000 m. 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.98
22.02.44 Uffz. Josef Baumann: 1 8./JG 26 B-17 􀂅 IG-7: 8.500 m. [Aschberg] 13.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.10
22.02.44 Ofw. Adolf Glunz: 56 5./JG 26 B-17 HSS 􀂅 N.E. Wesel: 5.700 m. 13.10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.99
22.02.44 Uffz. Rudolf Georgi: 3 7./JG 26 B-17 HSS 􀂅 Selm 8 km. N. Lünen: 7.500 m. [Ruhr] 13.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.80

22.02.44 Ofw. Adolf Glunz: 58 5./JG 26 B-17 􀂅 Garzweiler S.W. Grevenbroich: 6.000 m. 15.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6

22.02.44 Ofw. Walter Ebert 10./JG 2 B-17 􀂅 8 km. südl. Antwerpen: 6.000 m. 16.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
Supplemental/Duplicated Claims from Sources:
22.02.44 Uffz. Rudolf Hübl: 11 1./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 185 6./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/KO, nordestlich Bottrop 12.51 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fw. Fuchs: 11 4./JG 1 B-17 HSS 􀂅 05 Ost S/JP, südostlich Coesfeld 13.00 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Zauter: 1 6./JG 1 B-17 e.V. 􀂅 05 Ost S/KO-5/6, raum Wesel 13.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Tüngler: 2 5./JG 1 B-17 HSS 􀂅 05 Ost S/KN, Xanten 6.000 m. 13.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Zinkl: - 4./JG 1 B-17 e.V. 􀂅 05 Ost S/JQ-4, raum Münster 13.06 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Irmer: n.b. Stab II./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 186 6./JG 1 B-17 􀂅 05 Ost S/HO-1/4, nördl. Grevenbroich 14.18 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202

22.02.44 Oberst Walter Oesau: 112 Stab/JG 1 B-17 􀂅 - 15.25 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Güthenke: n.b 3./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fw. Wennekers: 13 5./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sannemann: 21 6./JG 3 B-17 􀂅 - 13.55 Reference: JG 3 List f. 452

22.02.44 Gefr. Rudolf Pintsch: 3 11./JG 3 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 354

22.02.44 Lt. Johannes Jung: e.V. 6./JG 27 B-17 e.V. 􀂅 05 Ost S/KP-3/9 13.17 Reference: JG 27 List f. 564
22.02.44 Hptm. Heinrich Wurzer: 6 1./JG 302 B-17 􀂅 - - Reference: WR JG 301-02
22.02.44 Oblt. Müller: 15 IV./NJG 3 B-17 􀂅 bei Aalborg - Reference: DLC: B: KA: M
22.02.44 Oblt. Müller: 16 IV./NJG 3 B-17 􀂅 bei Aalborg - Reference: DLC: B: KA: M

Air Defence of the Reich [RLV]: 22. February 1944
Unit Commander Division Base Luftkampf Claims KiA WiA 100-60% 􀀀60%
III./JG 54 Hptm. Klemm 1. Jagddivision Ludwigslust 6 B-17: 1 B-17 HSS - 1 1 1


Ind. Erla Hptm. Laube 1. Jagddivision Delitsch - - 1 1 -
Luftbeo.St.2 n.n. 1. Jagddivision - 2 1 1 -
SKdo. OKL n.n. 1. Jagddivision Staaken - 1 - 1 -
Fl.Ü.G. 1 n.n. 1. Jagddivision - - 1 - 1 -
Stab/ZG 26 Obstlt. B-Tettelbach 1. Jagddivision Wunstorf - - - - -
I./ZG 26 n.n. 1. Jagddivision Völkenrode 1 B-17 - 2 2 -
II./ZG 26 Hptm. Tratt KiA 1. Jagddivision Hildesheim 3 B-17 2 - 1 2
III./ZG 26 Hptm. Kogler 1. Jagddivision Wunstorf 2 B-17 4 3 8 -
Sturmst. 1 Maj. Kornatzki 2. Jagddivision Langenhagen 1 B-17 - - - -
II./JG 3 Hptm. Rohwer 2. Jagddivision Rotenburg 2 B-17 - - 1 2
Stab/JG 11 Oberst. Graf 2. Jagddivision Husum - - - - -
I./JG 11 Hptm. Hermichen 2. Jagddivision Husum 6 B-17 - - - 1
II./JG 11 Hptm. Specht 2. Jagddivision Wunstorf 3 B-17: 1 P-51 - - 1 3
III./JG 11 Maj. Hackl 2. Jagddivision Oldenburg - - - 1 -
11./JG 11 Oblt. Christmann 2. Jagddivision Lister 4 B-17 2 - 2 -
IV./NJG 3 Hptm. Buschmann 2. Jagddivision Westerland 2 B-17 - - - -
Stab/JG 1 Oberst. Oesau 3. Jagddivision Deelen 2 B-17 - - - -
I./JG 1 Hptm. Schnoor 3. Jagddivision Rheine 2 B-17 1 - 3 -
II./JG 1 Hptm. Segatz 3. Jagddivision Rheine 3 B-17: 3 B-17 HSS: 2 B-17 e.V.: 1 P-47 - 1 5 1
III./JG 1 Hptm. Eberle 3. Jagddivision Volkel - 1 - 2 1
I./JG 3 Hptm. Haiböck i.V. 3. Jagddivision Mönchengladbach 2 P-47 3 - 4 -
IV./JG 3 Hptm. Lang i.V. 3. Jagddivision Venlo 2 B-17: 1 P-51 1 - 3 -
II./JG 300 Hptm. Peters 3. Jagddivision Rheine 2 B-17 - - - -
II./JG 2 Hptm. Bühligen 5. Jagddivision Creil 1 B-17 HSS 1 - 1 6
III./JG 2 Hptm. Huppertz 5. Jagddivision Cormeilles 1 B-17: 1 B-24 3 1 4 3
II./JG 26 Hptm. Naumann 4. Jagddivision Cambrai/Epinoy 4 B-17: 4 B-17 HSS: 3 P-47 2 2 6 2

Stab/JG 3 Oberst Wilcke 7. Jagddivision Neubiberg - - - - -
II./JG 27 Hptm. Schroer 7. Jagddivision Wiesbaden 1 B-17 e.V., 1 P-47 - 1 2 -
I./ZG 101 Maj. Smolle 7. Jagddivision Memmingen 1 B-17 - - - -
Combats & Casualties Reichsverteidigung 22.2.44: - 25 13 53 53

[clerick]

this is an amazing thread. I'd love to be a forensic historian.

[DREDIOCK]

LW B-17 claims
22.02.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 􀂅 Bielefeld: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6

Anyone know how to access these films? Would be an easy way to either confirm the report or rule Gerth out.

[DREDIOCK]

Sounds like you are on the right track.  I just didn't want the plane type to possibly push you away from the pilot that seems to fit if it turned out he was in a 109.  The time and place would be the more important info.  Keep us up to date if and when you learn more.  I'm going to keep looking if that's ok with you.

Werner Gerth in January of 44 was known to be flying a FW 190 A6 called "white 1"
Though his squad sturmstaffel 1 flew modified A5's and A6's (added armor was added to critical areas and armored glass was added to the side and front quarterpanels of the cockpit. They later flew the A-7s around February /march 1944

Artists rendition


Speaking of which. Stumbled across this site. Has some real nice artwork for wallpaper and maybe skin reference such as the pict that follows the link

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190A-ST1-White-1-Gerth/pages/RG-Fw-190A6-Sturmstaffel-1-Werner-Gerth-attacking-381st-BG-17Gs-V02.html

[Shane]

looks like it was a 190  http://www.feldgrau.com/JG1.htm

II./JG1 based: 13.7.43 - 18.3.44 Rheine  Fw 190A
Hptm Hermann Segatz, 2.44 - 8.3.44

He also claimed two B-17's on the 22nd:

22.02.44  Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35  Stab II./JG 1  B-17  £ JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve]  12.25  Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57  

22.02.44  Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36  Stab II./JG 1  B-17 HSS  £ 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m.  12.45  Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58  

[DREDIOCK]

looks like it was a 190  http://www.feldgrau.com/JG1.htm

II./JG1 based: 13.7.43 - 18.3.44 Rheine  Fw 190A
Hptm Hermann Segatz, 2.44 - 8.3.44

He also claimed two B-17's on the 22nd:

22.02.44  Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35  Stab II./JG 1  B-17  £ JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve]  12.25  Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57  

22.02.44  Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36  Stab II./JG 1  B-17 HSS  £ 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m.  12.45  Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58  

had looked at that but the times are off. there is indeed a 1 hour time difference between England and Germany
 Allies would be reporting in English time zone where as the germans would be reporting an hour later according to their tie zone.

It was one of the things I kept looking at. the plane was true to the eyewitness report and the location is about as spot on as one could ask for. Including the proximity of Bundt which is mentioned in the 381st logs. The only thing off was the time.
Then I heard someone say on the TV about daylight savings time and it dawned on me that the time zones might be different so I looked it up and sure enough a 1 hour time difference.
Therefore anything that a german pilot might have recorded as happening at 1400 hours would have been recorded by allied pilots as happening at 1300 hours.

Taking that into account That narrows down the Gerth claimed victory to that of the allied report of the plane going down to a difference of only 11 minutes.

Id love to get hold of that film to be sure one way or the other though.

Still based on the reports. It looks as though the probability is that of a 190 regardless of whom it was flown by

[DREDIOCK]

http://youthtool.net/w/Time_zones

[Shane]

Returned to Duty I believe.

EUS probably means "Ex-patriated back to US" after the war, with the RTD maybe being guys who made their way back after bailing?

[DREDIOCK]

EUS probably means "Ex-patriated back to US" after the war, with the RTD maybe being guys who made their way back after bailing?

The survivors probably RTD'ed after the cessation of hostilities as they became POWs.
My mother in law said they came to her house after the war  and talked to her mother. What was said we dot know. All my mother in law was told was that the plane blew up. that was the assumption she went buy until I found documentation to the contrary. She didnt even know there was a grave sight.

I had asked her if she wanted me to continue looking to see what I could find. And if I should see if I could find out the name of the German pilot if possible. she definitely wanted me to. I guess out of curiosity. If she felt any ill will to the Germans. She never made it known. According to her it was war.

My father in law on the other hand. He hated the Japaneese till the day he died. but then again. he actually fought against them

[MiloMorai]

The coords given in Guppy's post put the a/c shot down ~8.6mi from Paderborn @ 48* heading.

22.02.44 Ofw. Robert Roller: 13 6./JG 3 B-17 􀂅 JT-2 or FT-2: 7.000 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.70
22.02.44 Oblt. Rudolf Klemm 7./JG 54 B-17 􀂅 JT-42: 7.500 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 234
22.02.44 Maj. Günther Specht: 30 Stab II./JG 11 B-17 􀂅 Blomberg-Detmold: 7.100 m. 13.42-55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.21

Detmold is ~10mi north of the coords Guppy posted.
Blomberg is ~10mi e of Detmold

Note, the JT is the German coords system.

The Segatz claims are too far west.

Dred, I will ask at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/ They are into history of air actions.