Author Topic: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx  (Read 1386 times)

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 10:08:25 AM »
The need for both ship speed and catapult could easily be addressed by a ramp, which the Chinese already have with their lone CV.

A super-tank hull coming in at 1,500 feet could easily have overhang adding another 200+ feet on front and back, meaning 1700+ feet of runway. This would afford larger areas of both takeoff and landing. Would this be sufficient to eliminate the need for specialized designed aircraft for ship operations? Could they take their current compliment of J-10s, etc, and operate them from something like this? They would still need arresting gear for landing but with twice the length to land on would this be simpler from an engineering/design perspective? In a pinch would the French provide Rafale's?

The cost of building a 1,500+ foot superhull is incredibly cheap, couple hundred million. Compare that to the cost of a design-built CV, which runs ten times that. Outfitting this ship would likely be the most expensive part, radar, airdefense, etc. using modern commercial techniques could they get a ship crew down to a few hundred? Modern super-tankers have dozens of crew members for operation, highly automated.

The thoughts of needing 30+ knots for open war fighting like Halsey circa WW2 isn't necessary. The concept is being able to move an airfield into a key choke point and project power with a combat aircraft. So far, I'm not reading it is impossible nor that it isn't plausible.

Just wondering.

Boo
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2012, 10:23:05 AM »
Tankers are designed to carry a liquid load.  This takes a different set of requirements than carrying a large internal load, plus a flight deck that's strong enough to have airplanes crash onto it.

Currently  the Chinese have 1 true carrier, they Bought it from the Russians after they decided they couldn't afford to finish it.
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Offline Tom5572

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2012, 11:30:12 AM »
Repeated overstressing a catapult is a bad idea, there are videos of the results. There is only one super tanker in the 1500 foot range the rest are between 1000 and 1300. Of that length only 500 to 650 would be usable for either launch or recovery. If you want to go back to the straight deck cv, it is still to short to launch a fully loaded and fueled aircraft. Sure they could lessen the weight by in flight refueling but they would still have to launch those from the carrier.

Take a look at the bow of a super tanker, what a waste of energy to push that through the seas. Again, we are talking about a force projection weapon, what a weak force projection it would be if a single torpedo could break her back.

Look at the purpose built aircraft carriers around the world, look at their hulls. They are sleek in front to slice through the seas. There must be a reason all aircraft carrier owning nations use the same general hull design. I mean if a sleek hull design was such a bad idea why are all the world's navies using them. Heck, if you know better than the engineers who designed them you need a job designing ships.
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2012, 11:40:33 AM »
Thanks Tom.
Now somebody is going to suggest converting lakers into carriers.
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Offline Tom5572

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2012, 11:59:41 AM »
Lol, always here to help.
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2012, 12:16:44 PM »
One question that hasn't been asked....

Why don't we convert some Ice breakers into carriers?  That would solve the problem of aircraft carriers unable to fight near the poles.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2012, 01:25:51 PM »
One question that hasn't been asked....

Why don't we convert some Ice breakers into carriers?  That would solve the problem of aircraft carriers unable to fight near the poles.


I hear Polish folks don't mind.
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2012, 01:36:05 PM »
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2012, 01:42:13 PM »
Skipping most the replies so far, so pardon if someone has already stated the extremely obvious answers as to why nobody makes them any bigger:

#1  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal
#2  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal


With super tankers, carrying +20x "normal" (canal-sized) capacity, who cares if it takes you 5x-10x as long to reach your destination, since lives aren't on the line and it's netting more money for the boat's owner....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 01:46:13 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2012, 02:30:10 PM »
Because I do actually find this discussion interesting (to a point), since you have this interest in ship design, I see two worlds in the modern profession. 

Mega/super sized, where you're transporting X for the cheapest 0.00000Y-cent (before taking into account foreign currency exchange markets....) from A to B or C.  This falls into the niche of specialty designs, much like oil drilling barges/platforms, you don't build many of them in the world, but you build a few of these very specialized (often behemoth-sized) vessels (even the mega oil tankers have a lot more to them than just an oversized bathtub).

Or trying to get X+1 into given maximum dimensions for the canals/channels/gates you have to fit your vessel to get through.


Now, maybe, perhaps this will light up a bulb in your head as to why our (-capitalist consuming Americans) ports (as well as the exporting markets of asia, the philippines, and the west-half of south america are dependent on our nation's West Coast ports - which in turn have developed into some of the largest (size, cargo volume and individual ship sizes) in the nation and world.   Hypotheticly, lets say Honda can send a ship with 5,000 cars to Port Hueneme or Los Angeles here in CA (or even Washington State or Frisco or... well you get the idea) in one fell swoop, hire a bunch of American truckers (and Honda PR lights another cigar) and maybe a contract with a couple large railway companies (American companies/union work) and still save more money than shipping 10x500-car shipments through panama on the way to the eastern-half of our nation. 

Same example can be made with the mega tankers and the oil industry, the wells in the mid-east, refineries located along the coast from Texas to Maine, the Suez Canal (which given recent history, they've been really interested in leaning away from depending on - enter the boon of mega-tankers in the last decade or two as the demand is still strong), etc..  Cheaper to avoid that whole mess, take the scenic route around Africa, and deliver a mega-tanker full once every few weeks or so "straight" from Dubai to Galveston.  It's all dollars and cents.
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Offline pembquist

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2012, 02:58:38 PM »
How about a little devil advocacy: maybe cvs should be replaced by disposable drone launchers.  Realistically with the development of antiship ballistic missiles (chinese at this time) the cost of a smoking hole in the water is bound to fall and be obtainable by all but the most impoverished nations.  If all the carrier group will be able to do safely is provide airsupport against insurgents, might there be a better/less expensive way to accomplish that than another iteration of a ww3 weapons system?  Isn't naval aviation, in its current form, a bit like cavalry on the eve of ww1?
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2012, 03:41:30 PM »
A bit of humor.

Ice breaker CV? Did you know that the US went pretty far in developing a CV made of ice during WW2. They were trying to solve the issue of protecting fleets up north. CV made of ice could not be sunk; water mixed with saw dust actually stronger then concrete; refrigeration units made for permanent facilities; size not as restricted by then available commercial means. Ultimately not built but seriously considered.

China has very little need, nor does their policy requiring projecting past the Suez and Panama. They realize the Western world must come East for oil and markets. The restrictions then of those two vanals are moot.

Most spend all their time explaining why not. In life its always the few that find better ways.

Boo

PS. Again, little need for 30+ knts. Speed is less an issue then power projection.
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
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Offline superpug1

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2012, 04:44:39 PM »
nukes from orbit.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2012, 05:16:41 PM »
A bit of humor.

Ice breaker CV? Did you know that the US went pretty far in developing a CV made of ice during WW2. They were trying to solve the issue of protecting fleets up north. CV made of ice could not be sunk; water mixed with saw dust actually stronger then concrete; refrigeration units made for permanent facilities; size not as restricted by then available commercial means. Ultimately not built but seriously considered.

China has very little need, nor does their policy requiring projecting past the Suez and Panama. They realize the Western world must come East for oil and markets. The restrictions then of those two vanals are moot.

Most spend all their time explaining why not. In life its always the few that find better ways.

Boo

PS. Again, little need for 30+ knts. Speed is less an issue then power projection.

They never got too far into building one made of ice.  The boats melted in the water like icecubes.  In addition, while concrete has a high compressile strength, it doesn't have a good shear or tensile strength.  In layman terms, that means that one good whack against a rock and the whole thing tears and cracks like a frozen tissue.  That's why steel is still the best for the job.  It rusts, but paint and this nickel-zapper whose name escapes me keeps it off for the most part.

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Offline Rino

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Re: Nerd question of the week...Chinese CVx
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »
     Unless the Chinese want to do the whole "World Police" power projection thing, I'd think improving their inflight refueling capability
would make more sense for their defense needs.  Taiwan isn't that far away after all  :D
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