Author Topic: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?  (Read 1212 times)

Offline DMVIAGRA

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The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« on: March 12, 2012, 03:50:04 PM »
Boeing’s F/A-18E and F Super Hornets, and their forebears, have been part of U.S. naval aviation for so long it’s hard to imagine aircraft carriers without them. But under this month’s DoD budget submission, the Navy would accept its last new Superbug in only three years.
 
Big B announced on Wednesday that it had completed early delivery of the Navy’s second-to-last multi-year batch of Super Hornets and E/A-18G Growlers — 257 airplanes — and that it’s on the glide slope to continue right on through into the final multi-year. That would involve another 66 Es and Fs and 58 Gs, “to be purchased through 2013.”  Under today’s deals, including existing international orders, that would mean Boeing would deliver its last jet in 2015, said company spokesman Philip Carder.
 
But you don’t get to be an aerospace titan by giving up that easily. A source with knowledge of the program tells DoDBuzz there could be opportunities for additional Super Hornets with the U.S. Navy and international customers, depending on the breaks.

It’s very feasible: Boeing has made billions of dollars by exploiting delays in Lockheed’s F-35, and DoD just pushed 179 of those outside its five-year defense plan. The Navy Department specifically dialed back its total order by 48 Cs and 21 Bs in this month’s budget submission. Presumably, that will only worsen its standing “strike fighter shortfall.” The exact numbers for that “gap” fluctuate with the phases of the moon, but the Navy said last year it was 65 airplanes.  If the Navy really wants to keep 11 carriers and 10 air wings, it may need to order new jets to plug the gap.
 
Then there’s the possibility for international orders: “The Super Hornet is currently involved in competitions in Brazil, Malaysia, and countries in the Middle East. In addition to these countries, Boeing and our U.S. government customer are having discussions with numerous international military institutions and governments,” Carder said.
 
Lockheed Martin and the world’s other big fighter vendors aren’t just standing still, however. They will scrap for as many of these competitions as they can, and as India’s selection of the Dassault Rafale showed, the Euro-firms can still play in the same league as the Americans.
 
F-35 boosters are working overtime to dispel the cloud that has surrounded their jet. We saw this week where the Royal Air Force’s first test pilot loved the C, and Lockheed kept up the tempo on Thursday, announcing what it called a significant set of test milestones for so early in the year:
 
An Air Force A reached the F-35’s highest altitude yet Jan. 9 when it cruised at 43,000 feet; an A did the first low approach with the Distributed Aperture System on Jan. 17; the A had its first night flight on Jan. 18; Secretary Panetta lifted the B’s “probation” on Jan. 20 “almost a full year ahead of schedule,” as Lockheed put it; the first test aircraft, AA-1, logged 2,500 flight hours Jan. 25; and an A flew with external weapons for the first time on Feb. 16 — though it didn’t fire any.
 
Overall, Lockheed said, As have flown 46 times so far this year; Bs have flown 45 times; and Cs have flown 23 times. The numbers and statistics are what they are — Lockheed did not address the “software” issues Panetta mentioned several times last week to congressional lawmakers, or the C’s apparent need for rework on its arrester hook.
 
Bottom line: Everyone involved is keenly aware that this is a battle over a shrinking pool of money. Boeing’s argument is that the F-35 will never get here. Lockheed’s is that it’s right around the corner. The Super Hornet’s survival or extinction — and possibly that of the companies involved here — will depend on the firms’ ability to make policymakers believe one pitch and not the other.

Offline nrshida

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 05:11:02 PM »
Lockheed's delays are primarily to do with extending the wingspan and accommodating longer flaps and slats which have proved problematic. The artists impression of the new version confirm Lockheed propensity for sticking to proven designs and playing it safe:-

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Offline Rich52

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 05:32:03 PM »
Quote
Lockheed Martin and the world’s other big fighter vendors aren’t just standing still, however. They will scrap for as many of these competitions as they can, and as India’s selection of the Dassault Rafale showed, the Euro-firms can still play in the same league as the Americans.

The Rafale is probably the biggest failure in the export market of any major airframe, by any major Industry player, in History. If India has indeed finalized a deal then as far as I know they are the only ones. The French have done everything possible to sell the fighter with no success. India is probably buying it more for Political reasons then any other. Considering the amount of former buyers they once had the French aerospace industry is in serious trouble.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 10:36:45 PM »
Boeing’s F/A-18E and F Super Hornets, and their forebears, have been part of U.S. naval aviation for so long it’s hard to imagine aircraft carriers without them.


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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 10:46:44 PM »
I still remember when they had the F-18 to replace the F-4 Phantom II and the A-18 to replace the A-4Scootermobile. Congress, cutting budgets made them combine abilities into one frame, and thus was born the F/A-18.

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Offline bozon

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 02:46:54 PM »
The Rafale is probably the biggest failure in the export market of any major airframe, by any major Industry player, in History. If India has indeed finalized a deal then as far as I know they are the only ones. The French have done everything possible to sell the fighter with no success.
The French aviation lost big time when France embargoed Israel. Till the 60s, they were selling fighters to the IAF -> the IAF go and shoot down lots of Soviet fighters for minimal losses -> everyone else also want to shoot down Soviet fighters -> they buy Dassault.
By loosing the IAF as top customer after the Mirage III, they lost all the combat experience and opportunities to prove their equipment in action. Silly little French did not even install cannons in the Mirage till the IAF demanded it - and then shot down scores of Migs in 67, 70 & 73 wars almost exclusively with cannons. The story goes that the Mossad stole the plans to the Mirage V which was being built for the IAF (but never sold due to the embargo) and they were used in building the Nesher (upgraded Mirage III in Israel). However, there were rumors that Dassault basically gave the plans to the IAF, so that the IAF keep advertising French planes and maybe return to them as customers in the future.

Instead, the US that had no shortage of military action of its own, started to equip the IAF and benefit from their combat experience. I dont have the accurate numbers, but I believe that US fighters shot down more Migs in the IAF than in US service. The US is selling them for foreign aid "coupons" to make sure that the IAF does not buy anywhere else, or develop its own (and also subsidize the US military industry without the American public realizing it). I remember how a few years ago EL-AL (a private company now) announced that they will buy Airbus instead of Boeing and made the Bush administration freak out. They now have a Boeing only fleet...
But I'm rumbling...

Too bad about French aviation. The old Israeli pilots really loved their Mirage III and speak about it like the Brits about their Spitfires.

Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Rich52

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 06:43:11 PM »
Actually it was the end of the Cold War that spelled bad times for French aviation. The French airframes were a good alternative for many 3rd world countries who wanted western level performance without any Political consequences. The Israelis had manuevered for many years to make the USA its main arms supplier but we actually refused until the '73 war when Israel and A-rabia became the front lines of the Cold War.

The Rafale was launched at a bad time for the market. In fact it was simply a last ditch effort by the French to keep its aerospace industy solvent. As a 4'th gen fighter its not as good as the EF and its not cheap either. The Swede Gripen is a fine choice for the smaller markets and the Soviets and Chinese have poured, pr stole, much moola into their industrys with exports in mind. Meanwhile big hitter customers keep watching those videos of American stealth.

The Rafale is not a bad design. Its just came at the wrong time for the wrong price. If it wasnt for Indias booming economy and booming fear of the Chinese they probably couldnt give the things away, which is pretty much what they are doing when R&D is figured in. India has a huge AF, this is actually a pretty good piece of news for the french.


The French aviation lost big time when France embargoed Israel. Till the 60s, they were selling fighters to the IAF -> the IAF go and shoot down lots of Soviet fighters for minimal losses -> everyone else also want to shoot down Soviet fighters -> they buy Dassault.
By loosing the IAF as top customer after the Mirage III, they lost all the combat experience and opportunities to prove their equipment in action. Silly little French did not even install cannons in the Mirage till the IAF demanded it - and then shot down scores of Migs in 67, 70 & 73 wars almost exclusively with cannons. The story goes that the Mossad stole the plans to the Mirage V which was being built for the IAF (but never sold due to the embargo) and they were used in building the Nesher (upgraded Mirage III in Israel). However, there were rumors that Dassault basically gave the plans to the IAF, so that the IAF keep advertising French planes and maybe return to them as customers in the future.

Instead, the US that had no shortage of military action of its own, started to equip the IAF and benefit from their combat experience. I dont have the accurate numbers, but I believe that US fighters shot down more Migs in the IAF than in US service. The US is selling them for foreign aid "coupons" to make sure that the IAF does not buy anywhere else, or develop its own (and also subsidize the US military industry without the American public realizing it). I remember how a few years ago EL-AL (a private company now) announced that they will buy Airbus instead of Boeing and made the Bush administration freak out. They now have a Boeing only fleet...
But I'm rumbling...

Too bad about French aviation. The old Israeli pilots really loved their Mirage III and speak about it like the Brits about their Spitfires.


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Offline bozon

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 06:17:09 AM »
Actually it was the end of the Cold War that spelled bad times for French aviation. The French airframes were a good alternative for many 3rd world countries who wanted western level performance without any Political consequences. The Israelis had manuevered for many years to make the USA its main arms supplier but we actually refused until the '73 war when Israel and A-rabia became the front lines of the Cold War.
The US started to supply planes to Israel in '69 immediately after the French embargo (lots of Vietnam surplus). A-4 was the first plane that Israel got. True, the cold war had a large part in it since after the six day war in '67 the soviets significantly increased their influence and involvement with the arab armies. Israeli policy, initially set by Ben-Gurion was to avoid taking sides in the cold war and try to get close to Europe instead. After '67 Israel was embargoed by Europe and with Sovient support to the arabs Israel was pushed into an open alliance with the US. There were even dogfights between Soviet flown Mig 21s and the IAF over the Suez during the attrition war (dont remember the date, early 70's, before '73 Yom-Kippur war) . The first batch of delivered F-4 phantoms mixed with Mirages (4+8 I think) had a huge furball with more than 20 Migs. 5:0 to the IAF IIRC.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Rich52

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »
I was aware of the SkyHawks but would like to see a figure on the amount of F-4s in IAF inventory at the start of the YKW. Dont forget the USA also embargo'd military sales to Mideast countries, Israel being the only one we sold to, even before the French embargo. It was the Soviet rearming of the Arab states that caused America to rescind the embargo. OK, the number was 50 F-4s to Israel by 1973. A number still outstripped by French Mirages, Mystere, and Super Mystere, fighters.

I would still stand by my position that America was no Israels MAIN military supplier until the post YKW military grants policies took effect. Heck I'd bet we sent more Phantoms to Iran then to Israel pre-1973. The result was, however, that France did become a major airframe exporter to many Arab countries after their embargo against Israel. Countries that now dont want the Rafale, many of whom are now flying F-16s and clamoring for F-35s.
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Offline bozon

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 07:49:59 AM »
I would still stand by my position that America was no Israels MAIN military supplier until the post YKW military grants policies took effect.
That statement is true. Before 1973 Israel had equipment from various European countries, but not much from the US. Between 67 and 73 arms and equipment purchases from the US started to fill the IDF inventory. During the 73 war, the US flew shipments of equipment, lots of stuff left over from Vietnam - everything from small arms to fighter planes. Since then, almost all IDF equipment is either American or home made. Just an anacdote - the M16 that I got in my basic training (1993) was Vietnam surplus and was still in use by the IDF (clearly).

Relevant to the subject of the thread, the IAF did test the F-18 about 10 years ago. I remember seeing it flying over my house. It was decided not to get it and go with the F16 and F15 modified specifically to the IAF demands.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Rich52

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 06:18:25 PM »
Actually we sent an awful lot of equipment from NATO to Israel trying to stem off superpower involvement and/or the Israelis touching off a nuke. I was at a base in S/E Turkey and the older guys told me we emptied a huge inventory of AIM-9 missiles we had at the base and sent them to Israel during the dark days of the YKW. That and we eventually had, literally, a supply train of cargo and fighter aircraft in the air from America to Israel 24/7 trying to keep the Jewish state replenished with all kinds of arms, from MBTs to F4s to Helicopters to C-130s to all kinda things. The C5 Galaxy, which was new at the time, was the super star of this operation. The Soviets were doing the same and even had plans for direct involvement when the Jews eventually had the Arab armies encircled and on the virge of annihilation. I remember those days well, and after the long lines at the gas stations after the embargo.

The world was THIS close to a nuclear release by Israel and God knows what would have happened then. If anything it was an even worse situation then Cuba cause we and the Reds weren't the only players. :salute


That statement is true. Before 1973 Israel had equipment from various European countries, but not much from the US. Between 67 and 73 arms and equipment purchases from the US started to fill the IDF inventory. During the 73 war, the US flew shipments of equipment, lots of stuff left over from Vietnam - everything from small arms to fighter planes. Since then, almost all IDF equipment is either American or home made. Just an anacdote - the M16 that I got in my basic training (1993) was Vietnam surplus and was still in use by the IDF (clearly).

Relevant to the subject of the thread, the IAF did test the F-18 about 10 years ago. I remember seeing it flying over my house. It was decided not to get it and go with the F16 and F15 modified specifically to the IAF demands.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 11:17:46 AM »

This makes me feel really old.

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Tell me about it.  lol
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Offline Noir

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Re: The end’s in sight for the Super Hornet. Or is it?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 08:18:41 AM »
I'd argue that the Eurofighter is better than the Rafale...I'm not expert but the rafale seems like an efficient bomb truck with 13 hardpoints for the navy version (eurofighter doesn't have a navy version), and recent trials showed than in a cannon fight it is pretty manoeuvrable. As far as A2A goes I have no idea how the radar compare, and they probably fire the same missiles...they both can supercruise, have limited stealth, and the eurofighter is more expensive.
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