Author Topic: 88mm Flak Targetting System  (Read 2961 times)

Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2012, 08:49:21 PM »
The term Ack-Ack is not derived from the German pronunciation of the 88mm.  You are thinking of the word "flak" which was coined from the German name of the 88mm "Fliegerabwehrkanone" (aircraft defence cannon). 
No ... I'm NOT ... and you obviously DON'T speak german ... "The guns were universally known as the Acht-acht ("eight-eight"), a contraction of Acht-komma-acht Zentimeter ("8.8 cm")."

Maybe you'd make a good sniper detector too ?
:D

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Offline VonMessa

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2012, 10:17:17 PM »
I said that AAA guns did NOT HAVE SIGHTS - AAA - do you know what that stands for ??? evidently not ... you're concept that German gun crews (10 men to fire 1 gun) were using Kentucky Windage and Tennessee Psychic Sights to fire at individual aircraft with guns that had no sights is ludicrous - (look it up).
:rolleyes:

Well, sometimes it happened that way.  I don't need to look it up, I trust Vilkas's memory, since he was there and manned AA guns.

Sometimes guns were fired without a firing solution.  It was in desperation, but it happened.

In addition, 'Ack, ack' does not come from German, but from the alphabet used by British signallers in the First World War. The alphabet involved saying 'ack' for 'a', 'beer' for 'b' and so on...hence AA (Anti Aircraft) when transmitted by signallers would be transmitted as 'Ack, ack'.

You should consider a more reliable source besides Wiki...

Oh, by the way, Ich konnte zu sprechen, lesen und schreiben gut Deutsch, seit ich ein Kind war.  :aok
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2012, 10:23:08 PM »
No ... I'm NOT ... and you obviously DON'T speak german ... "The guns were universally known as the Acht-acht ("eight-eight"), a contraction of Acht-komma-acht Zentimeter ("8.8 cm")."

Maybe you'd make a good sniper detector too ?
:D



The letter "A" in the Royal Corps of Signals uses the phonetic spelling of "Ack" and during the war, "ack-ack" was used to refer to AA by the British army and it's a nickname that has stuck ever since.  The use of "ack-ack" by the British in reference to AA is solely born out of the phonetic alphabet used at the time.

This was the phonetic alphabet used by the British army during World War I and the term was already in use by the time the 88mm Flak 17 made its introduction in 1917.

Ack
Beer
Charlie
Don
Edward
Freddie
Gee
Harry
Ink
Johnnie
King
London
Emma
Nuts
Oranges
Pip
Queen
Robert
Essex
Toc
Uncle
Vic
William
X-ray
Yorker
Zebra


ack-ack
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2012, 12:52:51 AM »
I said that AAA guns did NOT HAVE SIGHTS - AAA - do you know what that stands for ??? evidently not ... you're concept that German gun crews (10 men to fire 1 gun) were using Kentucky Windage and Tennessee Psychic Sights to fire at individual aircraft with guns that had no sights is ludicrous - (look it up).
:rolleyes:

Yes, the FlaK 36 series was originally designed as an AAA gun. They were multipurpose yes, but they were still classified as an AA gun in the German inventory. You did not anywhere state that they did not have sights for AA use, you simply stated that the AAA guns (every FlaK cannon ever produced) did not have sights.


And again, if you think that people will follow all orders precisely and to the letter, never deviating from the plan, in the heat of battle, you're incredibly naïve and rather ignorant to boot.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2012, 12:00:31 PM »
Yes, the FlaK 36 series was originally designed as an AAA gun. They were multipurpose yes, but they were still classified as an AA gun in the German inventory. You did not anywhere state that they did not have sights for AA use, you simply stated that the AAA guns (every FlaK cannon ever produced) did not have sights.
No ... EVERY FLAK CANNON ever produced was NOT AAA ... You really know VERY LITTLE about this subject ... AAA ... stands for Anti Aircraft Artillery ... Do you have any idea ? what the difference is between GUNS and ARTILLARY ??? Evidently NOT ... If it has SIGHTS ... ? then it's NOT ARTILLARY ... Maybe consider changing that name to TANK DUMMY ... OK, next excuse please ...
:rolleyes:
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2012, 02:28:20 PM »
No ... EVERY FLAK CANNON ever produced was NOT AAA ... You really know VERY LITTLE about this subject ... AAA ... stands for Anti Aircraft Artillery ... Do you have any idea ? what the difference is between GUNS and ARTILLARY ??? Evidently NOT ... If it has SIGHTS ... ? then it's NOT ARTILLARY ... Maybe consider changing that name to TANK DUMMY ... OK, next excuse please ...
:rolleyes:

Yes, artillery did have sights.  For example, the 88mm Flak 36 had sights for direct fire and also a range finder for indirect fire in addition to being able to connect to a fire control system for AA work.

Another example is the US 90mm, which also had sights to allow for direct fire as well as a range finder for indirect artillery fire and like the German 88mm, was able to connect to a fire control system (M7/M9) for AA work.  So, while not all artillery had sights, some did and still remained "artillery".

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2012, 04:22:11 PM »
Yes, artillery did have sights.  Another example is the US 90mm, which also had sights
ack-ack
Artillery, by definition, is used for indirect fire that is targeted on an AREA ... GUNS are used for Direct Fire and have GUN SIGHTS. The Pieces you refer to are known as DUAL PURPOSE GUNS ... they are GUNS because they DO have sights, but they may ALSO be tasked for indirect fire as ARTILLERY. This is kind of  - Basic Military Nomenclature 101 - . Now about your tuition ...  :cool:
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2012, 04:30:23 PM »
Artillery, by definition, is used for indirect fire that is targeted on an AREA ... GUNS are used for Direct Fire and have GUN SIGHTS. The Pieces you refer to are known as DUAL PURPOSE GUNS ... they are GUNS because they DO have sights, but they may ALSO be tasked for indirect fire as ARTILLERY. This is kind of  - Basic Military Nomenclature 101 - . Now about your tuition ...  :cool:

Yes, the 90mm I used as an example was a dual purpose gun.  Not because it was capable of both indirect and direct fire, it was a dual purpose gun because it could be used both as an anti-aircraft gun and as ground artillery.  Howitzers are capable of both direct and indirect fire, does that make them dual purpose guns?  No it does not.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline VonMessa

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2012, 04:34:31 PM »
Yes, the 90mm I used as an example was a dual purpose gun.  Not because it was capable of both indirect and direct fire, it was a dual purpose gun because it could be used both as an anti-aircraft gun and as ground artillery.  Howitzers are capable of both direct and indirect fire, does that make them dual purpose guns?  No it does not.

ack-ack

Well, if I made a bong out of a Howitzer, would that make it dual-purpose?
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Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2012, 06:09:50 PM »
Howitzers are capable of both direct and indirect fire, does that make them dual purpose guns?  No it does not.
Howitzer is a design specification, generally refering to Barrel Length (short but longer than a mortar) Muzzel Velocity (slow) and intended angle of fire (high).  It has nothing to do with classification by usage ... They can be any of the 3 types.

Sorry, you've been expelled from this institution for incompetancy.
:rolleyes:

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2012, 06:47:29 PM »
Howitzer is a design specification, generally refering to Barrel Length (short but longer than a mortar) Muzzel Velocity (slow) and intended angle of fire (high).  It has nothing to do with classification by usage ... They can be any of the 3 types.

Sorry, you've been expelled from this institution for incompetancy.
:rolleyes:



I'm not surprised you missed the obvious point, it seems to be a trademark of yours. 

In any event, the point I was making is that just because the 88mm (and the US 90mm I used as an example) could fire both direct and indirect didn't make it a dual purpose gun.  What made it a dual purpose gun was the ability to be used in both the anti-aircraft and ground fire (either direct or indirect) role.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2012, 08:31:39 PM »
First you say -
just because the 88mm - could fire both direct and indirect didn't make it a dual purpose gun.

Then you say -
What made it a dual purpose gun was the ability to be used - either direct or indirect

Feeling a little confused ???

With a telescopic sight and a special carriage, some 88s could be used for DIRECT FIRE (generally AT, but also capable of airburst anti personel use). While on it's carriage it could NOT be used as AAA and was NOT connected to a target director. When dismounted from it's carriage it was capable of BOTH functions, if it's telescopic tanksight was installed. But in THAT state it was HIGHLY VULNERABLE and likely to be over-run in any enemy advance. It's ability to serve BOTH functions (DUAL PURPOSE) was a design factor. IN AH we have neither the AAA battery with multiple guns & targeting director, or the AT configuration with the telescopic sight ... we have a basically useless (but very decorative) white elephant.
:huh
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2012, 08:42:46 PM »
If you're going to quote someone, make sure you include the complete quote and not selectively edit it.

What made it a dual purpose gun was the ability to be used in both the anti-aircraft and ground fire (either direct or indirect) role.

As you can see, I said what made it dual purpose was the ability to be used as both AA and for ground fire.  The fact that a gun can fire either direct or indirect fire does not make it a dual purpose gun as you claim to think.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline EVZ

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2012, 08:56:24 PM »
As you can see, I said what made it dual purpose was the ability to be used as both AA and for ground fire.  The fact that a gun can fire either direct or indirect fire does not make it a dual purpose gun as you claim to think.
The 88s were used for INDIRECT AAA barrage fire ... in batterys of multiple guns ... they had NO SIGHTS for direct individual AA fire ...  where have you been ?
:rolleyes: 
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: 88mm Flak Targetting System
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2012, 01:05:12 AM »
EVZ, you're being incredibly moronic. You intentionally miss AKAK's point about the gun being dual purpose. You constantly try and redirect attention away from your own **** ups, like failing to clairfy things, failiure to do any research at all (even a quick trip to wiki), and just failiure in general.

You attempt to get off the hook on technicalities, but do it wrong. Quite often, you actually draw attention to an erroneous comment you made. But whats funny is when you try and slide off the hook when you're not even ON the hook, and end up skewering yourself in the arse with it.

The previous post is a good example of this; AKAK has said nothing about sights thus far, but instead has argued from a point of the FlaK 36 family being multipurpose. Yet like an idiot, you bring up the sights thing again, only drawing attention to the fact that, like an idiot (again), you failed to clarify in your previous post about sights. Instead of saying words to the effect of "the Flak 36 family never had sights for targeting individual aircraft", you simply say "the Flak 36 family had no sights".

Whats more, you try and quote AKAK out of context so as to change the meaning or implication of the quoted text, and simply assume that everyone else is as dumb as you are, and that they won't notice what you did.


Oh, and every FlaK cannon produced WAS an AAA weapon. The defenition of artillery does not include anything about whether or not it has sights. Also, every artillery piece is a gun, but not all guns are artillery pieces. This is just another example of you screwing up an attempt to escape on a technicality; in this case, you did it backwards.



Skuzzy, Hitech, sorry for anything that crosses the line in there, but that little punk really had it comming. More than that if you ask me, but I'm too tired right now to give you enough evidence to perma-ban me  ;).
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"