88mm Flak Targetting System

[shotgunneeley]

Ive been trying to look up information on how Axis forces set up their flak defense, but haven't found anything direct. Didn't they have a form of radar to detect the bomber group's altitude, speed and such? If so, I'd like to see a view for a player manning the flak 88 to be able to range the bombers' alt and speed. This will only be available if the radar at that particular field is operational. If radar is disabled, then the player will have to sight, range and fire the flak 88 manually like we currently have to do. The gunner could either auto calibrate the bomber's position and gun targetting information similar to the bombsite calibration, or the information will refresh itself at a fixed rate when the dot dar refreshes itself. For multiple cons, the player could tab between dots to select the one to calibrate for. I suppose this could work against fighters as long as they were flying straight and level. With the random shell placement, i dint think this will be a crazy accurate defense. Gives another level of strategy to protecting and destroying dar towers.

I wouldn't mind having several flak batteries with 3-4 flak 88's each. Would be great for AA defense, but on the other hand not very good for AT. As a backup wish, I'd like for the flak 88's muzzle elevation (in degrees) to be displayed. This will make it possible to produce a relatively accurate range chart.

[JunkyII]

Ive been trying to look up information on how Axis forces set up their flak defense, but haven't found anything direct. Didn't they have a form of radar to detect the bomber group's altitude, speed and such? If so, I'd like to see a view for a player manning the flak 88 to be able to range the bombers' alt and speed. This will only be available if the radar at that particular field is operational. If radar is disabled, then the player will have to sight, range and fire the flak 88 manually like we currently have to do. The gunner could either auto calibrate the bomber's position and gun targetting information similar to the bombsite calibration, or the information will refresh itself at a fixed rate when the dot dar refreshes itself. For multiple cons, the player could tab between dots to select the one to calibrate for. I suppose this could work against fighters as long as they were flying straight and level. With the random shell placement, i dint think this will be a crazy accurate defense. Gives another level of strategy to protecting and destroying dar towers.

I wouldn't mind having several flak batteries with 3-4 flak 88's each. Would be great for AA defense, but on the other hand not very good for AT. As a backup wish, I'd like for the flak 88's muzzle elevation (in degrees) to be displayed. This will make it possible to produce a relatively accurate range chart.

I think that might make base defense a little too easy but I like the idea.

I just feel with a Rangefinder with lower alt cons(-10k) would make them too easy to hit

 

[Vapor]

Neat idea. That would require precision NOE attack to knock out radar prior to the main force coming in. might be worth exploring. 

[EVZ]

Ive been trying to look up information on how Axis forces set up their flak defense, but haven't found anything direct. Didn't they have a form of radar to detect the bomber group's altitude, speed and such?

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88mm-flak-series-flugabwehrkanone.htm

Here is some good info and PICTURES of the MANUAL TARGETING INDICATORS that linked up to -4- guns together to coordinate fire on an individual target. As I understand it ... a central rangefinder and targeting unit was employed that fed the targeting data to the individual guns (dial indicators - see pics) The Gun Layers only needed to match their gun to the DIAL INFO being provided for ALL of them to be focused on the same target.

The 88s capabilities we have now in AH are disappointing and the 88s in MWA are seldom used and ineffective.

[VonMessa]

Ive been trying to look up information on how Axis forces set up their flak defense, but haven't found anything direct. Didn't they have a form of radar to detect the bomber group's altitude, speed and such? If so, I'd like to see a view for a player manning the flak 88 to be able to range the bombers' alt and speed. This will only be available if the radar at that particular field is operational. If radar is disabled, then the player will have to sight, range and fire the flak 88 manually like we currently have to do. The gunner could either auto calibrate the bomber's position and gun targetting information similar to the bombsite calibration, or the information will refresh itself at a fixed rate when the dot dar refreshes itself. For multiple cons, the player could tab between dots to select the one to calibrate for. I suppose this could work against fighters as long as they were flying straight and level. With the random shell placement, i dint think this will be a crazy accurate defense. Gives another level of strategy to protecting and destroying dar towers.

I wouldn't mind having several flak batteries with 3-4 flak 88's each. Would be great for AA defense, but on the other hand not very good for AT. As a backup wish, I'd like for the flak 88's muzzle elevation (in degrees) to be displayed. This will make it possible to produce a relatively accurate range chart.

Ask Vilkas

[Charge]

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/german-artillery-fire-control-equipment.html

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/index.html

-C+

[Karnak]

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88mm-flak-series-flugabwehrkanone.htm

Here is some good info and PICTURES of the MANUAL TARGETING INDICATORS that linked up to -4- guns together to coordinate fire on an individual target. As I understand it ... a central rangefinder and targeting unit was employed that fed the targeting data to the individual guns (dial indicators - see pics) The Gun Layers only needed to match their gun to the DIAL INFO being provided for ALL of them to be focused on the same target.

The 88s capabilities we have now in AH are disappointing and the 88s in MWA are seldom used and ineffective.

I'd actually like to have the 88s modeled as a battery of four all slaved to the player's sight instead of singles.  Not sure how that would impact GVs though.

[B-17]

I'd actually like to have the 88s modeled as a battery of four all slaved to the player's sight instead of singles.  Not sure how that would impact GVs though.

+1

[Karnak]

Not sure how that would impact GVs though.

A thought:

Allow only the primary gun to switch to AP ammo and when the gun is firing AP rounds the three slaved guns don't fire.

[Tank-Ace]

+1 to both shotgun and Karnak.

[Scherf]

Not much on targeting systems, however good description of fragmentation patterns of 88 flak shell.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter10.htm

Don't be clicking on too many links on that site unless you are, ahm, not squeamish. Medical stuff.

[Scotty55OEFVet]

Great Idea +10!!! I have mentioned this in-game regarding the 88 Flak and ranging Bombers accurately. As far as the whole range finding stuff, that would obviously have to be explored. I have mentioned to some of my fellow countrymen that when there is a large raid, or even just 2 sets of Buffs overhead, that all players manning those 88s need to communicate with one another. Yea, lol....that in itself is a task that can be frustrating. But imagine having all 88s manned, and having all 3 firing at same range all at same time or within 1 second of each other. That right there would produce a HEAVY Barrage that if even close will destroy or damage anything flyin through it. If you think about it u get no perks for killing anything with the Field Guns so why not work in tandem to stop bombing raids that can potentially render a based undefendable??? Thoughts?

[Tank-Ace]

Because the guns are located in different parts of the field. They're far enough away that the required lead and travel distance of the shell from one gun will be significanly different from the shell of another.

Also theres like, what, 3 88's on a field? Sorry, but 3 '88s aren't going to throw up a 'heavy' barrage. At best, it could be considered worrisome.

And in addition to that, theres actually some shell randomization for the 88's, and they seem to require a pretty close hit to destroy or significantly damage a target. At long range (where you want to stop the bombers), that shell randomization is going to come into play.

So while that MIGHT be effective for US 90mm's, with proxy fuzes, it wouldn't be effective for FlaK 36's who have to manually adjust their fuzes. Anytime you put a human element into things, its going to be affected by human error.


I mean unless we want to ASSUME that:

1) enough people are going to care about defending a base to go help

2) 3 of those people are going to hop into '88s instead of aircraft or vehicles

3) those 3 are both well educated in high-level math and quick with the calculations so that they can coordinate and give each other usefull range information.

4) and that what are most likely 3 strangers are not only going to work together, but work together effectivly as a cohesive team.

then we better give the '88 gunners command of a battery of 3-4 guns, simmilar to the bomber-drones.

And I think that would be a good decision, because I don't know about you, but I think that betting on all 4 points happening simultaneously makes for some piss-poor odds.

[shotgunneeley]

Ok, after reading some of the great info from the links this is what i envision:

1) 4 flak 88's to a battery for AA only; single flak 88's or v-base AT guns for AT only.

2) radar doesn't seem to have been needed for the range finding process, although it certainly would've given the defenders a heads-up. Determining the sight information seems to have been purely occular from ground based instruments.

3) a player operates his/her own AA battery. The gunner will use his/her joystick or mouse to place a set of black cross-hairs on the target and track it just like the manual bombsite system. While tracking the target, the player will use the "u" and "y" keys to calibrate the target's alt, speed, and vector. When the player is calibrated, a pair of green cross-hairs will appear along with the black ones. The better the calibration, the closer both cross-hairs will line up. In real life, the fuse setting was electrically set by the range information, so the gunner wouldn't change it manually. Keep the black cross-hairs lined up on the target and fire at will.

4) as long as the target keeps a steady course (speed, alt and vector constant) and the gunner keeps The black cross-hairs on the target, the the gun should automatically correct the fuse settings to meet the range information as the player changes its elevation and orientation.

5) of course, the target will eventually change course either subtly or aggressively and the gunner will have to re-calibrate for the target's change.

   I think this will only be a threat for buffs. Shouldnt be able to keep up with the wild changes in flight patterns for fighters unless the fighter was flying straight 'n level. If its too much of an issue for buffs, this system could be limited for use only when the radar ring for the base is enabled. I like AA guns for point defense when the enemy is on top of you before you can up an aircraft to engage. Its not going to kill a player to spend three minutes in a gun and then up a fighter right after the buffs pass.

[EVZ]

4 flak 88's to a battery for AA only; single flak 88's or v-base AT guns for AT only. - In real life, the fuse setting was electrically set by the range information, so the gunner wouldn't change it manually.

These 2 factors are important ... German Flak technique was to fire a barage at a formation (the heavier the better) NOT to target individual planes precisely. They spent nearly 1/3 of their armament budget on AAA guns ... Allied flyers often suggested they could get out and WALK HOME on the flak as it was so thick. To be EFFECTIVE against HIGH ALT BOMBERS it's obvious the game needs to model the reality and link several guns together so that a player can employ the same technique. The player should be operating the targeting console NOT a gun (won't look as sexy, but MIGHT produce actual hits). Targeting could be done by keeping the plane centered between brackets that you adjusted to match the wingspan to get the approximate range. Guns should fire automatically when "triggered" by the player operating the targeting console. Individual guns should be vulnerable to deacking, as they are now, but the targeting console should be in a hardened position that isn't killed so easily.

I like AA guns for point defense when the enemy is on top of you before you can up an aircraft to engage. Its not going to kill a player to spend three minutes in a gun and then up a fighter right after the buffs pass.

That's fine against LOW LEVEL attack, but upping a fighter to go after 15K+ buffs AFTER they pass isn't a very good option.