Did the Russians plan to invade Germany in 1941/1942

[Angus]

Oh, KgB, - you're welcome
If I recall right, the LW launched some 2000 aircraft on operation Barbarossa, while another 2000 were tied up facing west.
In 1940, their losses were closer to 3000 on the Western front and the BoB if my memory serves me, - there of almost half in the clash with the RAF after the fall of France untill the autumn of 1940.
I have never been able to find a proper number of plane losses during the western Blitz, but have stumbled on the number 1.100 sometimes. But I do not know if that includes Dunquerque, which was some hundreds of aircraft.
BoB alone in a limited period was some 1.200+ totally lost, mostly bombers, - the work-horses. The crews were LW's finest by the scores.
So, in short, had the LW never tried gaining aerial superiority above southern England, they'd have had one hell of a bigger force to fight the soviets.
And...had they managed to make a truce with the British, the same applies.
Lot of "If's" there.....

[KgB]

Ardys, why do we even bother?????

its not like anyone actually enters one of these conversations with an open mind. they have no real interest in a discussion of merit and value. but we asMuppet's can just take the conversation into our own forum where all the really smart guys hang out.........  

You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.

[Masherbrum]

The short of it.   The soviets were still feeling the aftermath of the Purges.   The soviets had absolute, piss-poor communications set up for the front line troops.   Stalin was a tactical ignoramus.

Read the book:  Stalin's Folly: The first ten days on the Eastern Front, by Constantine Pleshakov.   He was able to use the politburo documents in the archives. 

[oakranger]

I do not think Russia was ready to invade. Here is what i gather from four wars before Germany invaded them.

Spain

This gave Russia a change to try out their new tanks and aircrafts. The tanks was a disappointing and aircraft did not fair much either. However, the Russians blame the mountain terrain for the poor performance of the equipment and air power has greatly advanced since WWI, but they did gain something that help them out. 1) decided to build a dedicated ground attack aircraft (Il-2) and they formed armed divisions or "corps".

Manchuria

Russian fought a serious of battles with the Japs. This was a point that Russia used hundredths of tanks in the battlefield and decisively defeated the Jap army. This buildup confidence for the Russia. NOTE: Here is where Hitler ignore Jap help. Hitler was gambling on Japaness to invade Russia on the east. He should have looked at the results of Manchuria. The Japs used the battles in Manchuria as a field test of thier army's ability. They really had no attentions to invade Russia, but to see where they need to improve battlefield tactics.

Poland

Russia had plans to invade Poland after signed the alliance act with Germnay. However, they did not expected that Germany would have overtaken Poland so fast so the Russian offensive was hastily organized affair. It was a messy plan as the Rusians troops where not train as hard as the Germans. Thier advancement was disorganized and if any Poland resistance was there, the Russians they may have been stopped cold. Due to the ugly victory, Russian decided to disbanned the tank corps and tank battalions distributed among the infantry unites.

Findland

Another disaster for Russia. After the armistice, Russia know then that it was back to the basic and needed to improve the training.

France

Even though Russia had nothing to do with France, they stood on the sidelines and observed Germany Army. At first, they thought that the battle would be a stalemate. However, after the fast Germany victory with panzer divisions. Russian looked at bring back tank divisions. There were a few things that have change too. Officers where given more authority, political commissars where given less ability to over looked every units and like the Germany, the Russian air force primary mission was to direct support of ground forces.

General Zhukov insisted that "lightning war" would not be the key to victory. He knew, along a few high ranking officials that Germany will invade Russia. However, despite having more troops, tanks and aircraft, Russian was not train ready to attack Germany or fighting off a possible invasion from Germany. Also, Russian weapons are a bit out of date and Stalins paranoia of his staff he purged about 67% of the generals in the Army: 3 of 5 marshals, all 11 vice commissars of war, 75 of the 80  member of the Supreme War Council, 13 of 15 army CO, 51 of 85 corps commanders and 110 of 195 division and brigade commanders.

In all, I do not think Russia had no plans to invade Germany.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

What's always forgotten in these discussions is that Russia and Nazi Germany were allies 1938-1941. The Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement split the landmasses in baltic to be for Russia to conquer and the nazis would take the western part of europe. Russians and nazis split up Poland in mutual agreement and had a non-agression pact. Soviets annexed the baltic countries as a part of the M-R agreement, only Finland had the balls to fight instead of bending over to the red army.

Hitler didn't like the soviets attack to Finland and told Stalin in late 1940 that he won't allow another war against Finland. Interestingly enough the Britts, French and the Dutch offered to assist Finland against the soviets early 1940 but were disallowed passage through nazi Germany and more surprisingly the double faced Sweden who denied help to Finland due to "neutral" status and yet earned millions in profits selling copper and other metals for the nazi war machine.

[FLOTSOM]

You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.

HAHAHAHAHA wow, so you think that was condescending???? damn you need to meet me in person!!! sarcasm at the stupidity of others is an ingrained part of my personal persona! i am much nicer on line cause intardnet tough guys are pathetic!

now if you had shut your mouth before you typed your diatribe and read the post i had made just prior to the one you quoted, you know the one with the links to places to read about the soviet build up and statements and speeches made by Stalin then maybe you would have found that i, yes even i a condescending Muppet, did try to educate any who was willing to shut their mouths and open their eyes and read a bit of supported factual history.

so i did enter your conversation with a legit attempt to help educate you, i guess you were just not smart enough to be educated.....

oh, and as a foot note, a toothless hyena you say? do you realize that even without teeth the hyena has enough jaw pressure to crush the bones in your limbs pop your skull or/and snap your neck? here, ill google it for you, you can pick which report you would find the most educational... http://www.google.com/search?q=hyena+jaw+strength&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

[Nathan60]

Need to captialise those i's Flotsom.  Now back to my COFFEE.

[FLOTSOM]

Need to captialise those i's Flotsom.  Now back to my COFFEE.

and the Nazi has spoken!!!!




 

[Nathan60]

 

[Ardy123]

You are Muppet, i should've known. You condescending attitude gives it away.
You See, Angus was kind enough to educate me instead of insulting. There is no shame to admit that one was wrong. I'll remember him as a good guy. And you, you just a toothless hyena, afraid or not bright enough to engage into conversation yourself so all you do is stir #$it up.

I'm a muppet too 

toothless hyena huh...  muppet bravado got your but hurt?

[FLOTSOM]

I'm a muppet too 

toothless hyena huh...  muppet bravado got your but hurt?

i guess he couldnt see my avatar or your sig lne......

[PR3D4TOR]

My grandfather could kick all your grandfathers' arses! He fought in ALL the wars! 

[Rich52]

So, in short, had the LW never tried gaining aerial superiority above southern England, they'd have had one hell of a bigger force to fight the soviets.

There pretty much wasnt a Soviet air force after the opening days of Barbarossa. What was left wasnt much of a threat so the Luftwaffe roamed at will. I dont think Losses in BOB had much impact in the east. There the air war was lost in the battle of production and the drainage of Luftwaffe assets to protect Germany from the bomber assault that was to come. Frankly there was no way Stalin would have even considered an invasion until 1942 at the earliest.

Even then you have to wonder at the motivation of the Soviet soldier invading another country under Stalins orders, especially one like Germany with the best army in the world at the time. Even when invaded themselves it was German tyrrany as much as Stalins tyrrany that eventually turned them into a fierce armed force. Its a mystery why Stalin clung stubbornly to the idea that Hitler would not invade in '41 when every possible Intel source he had told him different. But as to the Soviets invading Germany? Not till '42 at the least and maybe not even then.

[Angus]

I am not claiming that Russia was ready to invade Masherbrum. Just pondering on if their strategy was that way. With a very open mind, mind you!
And KgB, - keep pondering on things. It is a source for entertainment in equilibrum to knowledge. Sometimes one is wrong, and recognizing it rather than defending a wrong point beyond all means is a sign of an independed mind, - the perfect character for...research, - the one pondering on things! You would probably like to meet me, we'd have fun, hehe.
Anyway, - did you realize that on operation Barbarossa, most of the transport was horse-drawn?
While it was not put so in the history books, - operation Barbarossa was in fact the biggest "riding tour" in world's history.

[Rich52]

Anyway, - did you realize that on operation Barbarossa, most of the transport was horse-drawn?
While it was not put so in the history books, - operation Barbarossa was in fact the biggest "riding tour" in world's history.

And the Juggernaut that eventually chased them back west was almost entirely motorized. Much of the wheeled vehicles stamped "Made in USA, Canada, England".