Author Topic: How do you approach a Spit?  (Read 8346 times)

Online SAJ73

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #165 on: April 09, 2012, 01:12:49 PM »
Good questions Dave, and I understand your frustration.  I'll do my best to give you some specific examples.

There are some problems with giving specific direction, of course, but I'll do my best.  Feel free to toss any questions you come up with my way.  I'll be happy to answer the ones I can.  I'll have to be brief this morning (on my way to work) but I can continue later.

Some of this will seem "general" at first, but please bear with me.  The specifics depend on the generalities.

I approach my flying/fighting the same way I do many of the other aspects of life.  I look for patterns/trends, and I notice specific, small details.  I'm also quick to associate what my target is doing, with what I'D likely do in the same situation.  What would I be seeing, thinking, expecting, and planning to do?  Knowing that, what can I do in my current situation to take advantage of that?

Thinking that way allows me to set "traps" for my opponent.  Beyond that, it allows me to prepare for him doing something, and be ready to instantly capitalize on it when he does it.  

It allows me some "freedom" with my thought processes, because I'm not "waiting for him to make a mistake".  If I did that, I'd have to wait until he did something, see it, recognize it, and then act on it (and because I didn't know he was going to do it, I may not be ready for it, in position for it, at the right speed, angle, etc).

"Waiting for him to make a mistake" doesn't work for me very well.  I suspect it also doesn't work well for a LOT of other people.

Instead, I do MUCH better if I set a trap for my opponent.  If I do that, I can anticipate the results, and watch them occur.  I'll no right away if things aren't developing the way I want/need them to, and I'll adjust to see if I can correct the matter.  If I can't correct it to give me a shot solution, I'll just adjust to survive at the least cost possible to me (and at the greatest cost to him) and then set another trap (maybe the same one).

So, the traps...  I used to do a fair amount of animal trapping, and bowhunting.  Those activities depend on some key components.  Obviously, making sure the target is available to begin with, in suitable numbers.  But then it comes to some specifics.  To catch a fox, you DO NOT just go set a trap for a fox.  If you do, you WILL NOT catch a fox.  The "trick" isn't even to catch the fox; it's to catch its right front foot.  Set properly, that trap will catch almost any fox that happens along, but will not catch a dog or coyote if they should happen along...  I'm not going to explain how to do that, but that's also how I approach fights in AH.  It'll serve as a good example.

To see the specifics involved , try (or imagine) this exercise.  Set a "trap" for your dog.  Pick a mark on the floor about the size of a golf ball.  You goal is to have your dog place his right front foot there, willingly, without your control.  If you can do that, consider him "trapped".  Use a treat, toy, or whatever...  You also don't want him to just brush his foot over that spot, you want him to place it there firmly.  That may seem impossible, but it's easy if you include some "guides".

Sounds nuts so far?  I'll be back tonight...



Can't wait for the next part of "traps"..  :x

In fact, reading this made one thing a bit clearer to me.. That being if I am in a 1v1 duel and not do what is generally expected doing in that particular situation, I might survive the fight alot longer than if I just merge by the book and turn blindly into my opponent. Because quite alot of good sticks are using traps to bait me to where they want me.. And if I turn in a way they didn't expect, even if it was in a way putting me in a bad position right there and then they might not see it and react upon it before too late because that's not what they were preparing to do. That way I've turned the tables in many fights, making the fight "my" fight instead. Atleast for a few extra rounds, a good stick will offcourse be able to turn the tables back to his advantage again after very few turns because I am such a bad shot and often lose the small window of opportunity that I made for myself, and the fight is back at scratch again. Only this time my opponent is aware and more prepared for me to do odd things, so he will see it and react sooner..  :rolleyes:

But practice is infact the main key word, no matter how you put it. Without it theory is almost useless.. Offcourse it may prepare your mind and inner eye for the fight, but too many small variables occur during a fight that only practice can prepare you for. Knowing your plane inside out, in any speed and E state is a huge advantage! And knowing your opponents plane just as good is even better. I am no expert on this myself, I don't want to seem like a wiseguy here. I just throw in what I know, or atleast what I think I know..  :P
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:14:22 PM by SAJ73 »
TheStig

Online SAJ73

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #166 on: April 09, 2012, 01:28:31 PM »
And to clearify what I mean by putting myself in a "bad" position, I mean turning in a way that puts me in an angle passing infront of my opponent. Barely out of guns reach prefereably, so he will bleed off some E trying to make the shot at me. But in such angle that it puts me in an immediate advantage position when he overshoots.. If that makes any sense?!  :huh
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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #167 on: April 09, 2012, 01:49:30 PM »
Tank-Ace words do not describe thy ignorance.
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Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #168 on: April 09, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »
And to clearify what I mean by putting myself in a "bad" position, I mean turning in a way that puts me in an angle passing infront of my opponent. Barely out of guns reach prefereably, so he will bleed off some E trying to make the shot at me. But in such angle that it puts me in an immediate advantage position when he overshoots.. If that makes any sense?!  :huh

I usually refer to that as trading a bad shot for a good position.  :aok

Offline mtnman

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #169 on: April 09, 2012, 06:30:53 PM »
So, back to it...

People are creatures of habit, and are therefore predictable.  Some may seem less predictable than others, but once you figure that persons patterns out, they're generally pretty predictable as well.

People also react to similar situations in pretty similar manners, even if they have no contact with each other.  An example of that (in a general sense) is the wheel...  It's not all that likely that someone invented the wheel, and that it then spread worldwide.  It's more likely that it was invented in several places, by different people with no contact with each other.  Take that a step further, and apply that to boats, clothing, shelter, food storage/prep, etc...  Sure, there are variations, but in general people came up with (and continue to do so) similar approaches to solving similar problems.  You can use that tendency in AH...

Back to the dog exercise...  You picked a small place on the ground that you'd like your dog to place his right foot upon.  You've picked a treat (a smear of peanut butter will work well) to place on the ground in any manner you choose to convince him to place that foot there.  Did he step on the spot?  Probably not, but if you're observant you've probably figured out a few things...  First, most animals (like people) are "right-footed".  When your dog stops to sniff the treat, he'll almost invariably stand with his right front foot in front, with his left front foot behind it and slightly to the side (left).  That's something you can use...  He'll repeat it.  People have similar, repeatable behaviors.  You can use those.

You'll occasionally find a dog that's "left footed"...  You'll also have better luck if the dog doesn't recognize the treat as anything "special" or "abnormal".  You need to keep the illusion that "all is fine, all is normal".  So don't make a big deal of the treat, place it where he'll "accidentally" find it.

Now, the size of the dog will dictate the distance from the treat the dog will place his front right foot.  A big dog will place his foot further back from the treat than a small dog.  The distance between the dogs nose when it almost touches the ground (sniffing or licking the treat) and the right front foot is the (first) key.  How far is it?  Let's say its a dog in the 50# range, so it places it's foot about 8" back from "the spot".  You'll also notice at this point that that right foot is offset to the right a few inches from center. 

Now, if you place the bait about 8" from "the spot", you'll be on the right track.  But how do you make the dog come in from the correct side?  And angle?  You "guide" him.  An easy way is to place a few peddles on the side of the bait opposite of "the spot".  And maybe one or two on each side.  Arranged properly, they're resemble an upside-down "V", with the bait in near the point, and "the spot" will be in the open end of the V.  There are other ways to "guide", even without placing physical "guides".  In AH, I just adjust the "bait" (me) so that my opponent attacks from the correct side/angle.  Some animals require more spacing, some require less.  Some rush right in, some "sneak in".  Some are aggressive, some defensive (or suspicious).  I adjust the spacing for that.  In AH, I adjust my position, speed, angle, etc...

Last, you will do better at trapping if you can get some "commitment" from your target.  In trapping, I do that by digging the "the spot" down an inch or two below the surface of the ground.  Imagine stepping on a thumbtack with bare feet.  On a flat surface/floor, you'll "hop" off of the tack the instant you feel it.  You may bury it fully in the sole of your foot, but probably not.  However...  If I place the tack on a step/stairway so that you contact it as you come down the stairs, you'll fully "commit" to placing your foot, and will bury the tack almost every time... 

I use that tendency too...  If you're attacking me, I'll do everything I can to make you dive from above me to a point below me, and waste your E pulling hard and zooming back to a point above me.  That's the commitment I want from my opponent.  I've always got a "plan B" in mind too, so if that doesn't happen I'll shift to increasing horizontal separation.  Either way, I'm sculpting the situation to draw a predictable behavior/action from you.  Since I know what I'm looking for, I'll know before you've even completed it whether my plan is working or not.  Mentally, I'm "ahead" of you in the fight.

This is how I shift a "defensive" position to an "aggressive" position.  I may look harmless enough, but I'm dictating at least part of your attack. 

I watch other players (and have been, for years) just like I've watched the animals I've trapped/hunted (bowhunting is a lot like trapping, in that you set up an ambush where you attempt to capitalize on an animal's repeated behaviors).

Of course, I don't always win...

More when I get back.  Supper time...
MtnMan

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #170 on: April 09, 2012, 06:57:49 PM »
Tank-Ace words do not describe thy ignorance.

 :rofl :rofl



Offline mtnman

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #171 on: April 09, 2012, 08:53:17 PM »
Continued...

I'm basically setting up the majority of my MA 1v1's using one of just a few "formulas", and I'm looking for certain patterns/moves/approaches by my opponents (what I see as "behaviors").  I try to set up opportunities for my opponents to exhibit the behaviors I want.  In doing so, I'm setting them up to step into one of my traps.

It's basically the same thing I do when I train my raptors...  I set up opportunities for them to exhibit the behavior I want to see.  With the birds, I reward that behavior.  I'm quick to change the situation slightly if I need to before I see behavior I don't want, or if I suspect the bird won't exhibit what I want so that it can be rewarded.  I "head off" undesirable behavior, so that the desired behavior becomes much more likely, or maybe even the only likely behavior I'll see.  In falconry, it allows me to reward.

In AH, I do the same thing more or less.  I set up an opportunity for my opponent to do something, and try to sculpt the situation so that there are fewer choices, and the one I want to see is hopefully more likely.

First, I try to set up one of two basic nose-on merges with three variations. 

In the merge I want to dive (I begin as soon as I decide I'm going to attack; I'm still 5.5K out or so), pick up a bunch of speed, and pass under my opponent.  As we pass, I want to be angling upwards by 30 degrees or so, while he's still in a 30 degree dive (or so).  As we pass, I DO NOT take my eyes off of my target (most will fail at this).

This merge will elicit one of just a few responses from most pilots (i.e predictable behavior).  The vast majority of MA pilots will happily merge like this, and will begin an immelman as they pass above me. 

A really inexperienced pilot will actually begin his immelman early, before he even passes by me.  I'm waiting for this, but don't see it too often.  When I do see this all I do is pull vertical which places me about 200yds off his tail.  He's dead.  I think pilots begin doing this when frustration sets in following being beaten by this merge too often.  They don't realize that my lower position and the sloped angle of our merge is what's allowing me an easy victory.  They seem to think (I did as well...) that the trick is to get around the immelman quicker than your opponent, so they start the immelman early...

The next option is that they go past before pulling the immelman (by far the most common).  This is what I plan for, and if they do it they've already stepped in my trap... 

The set-up for this is the initial merge angle (me going uphill, him going down; also, think back to my earlier post, where I mentioned that I want my opponent to dive past me, to a point below me, and then zoom back up).  If my initial heading was north, an immelamn reversal puts me headed south (opposite for my opponent).  In order for me to do that, I only need to pull a 150 degree immelman (I "cheated" and was already 30 degrees nose-up as we passed).  On the other hand, my opponent needs to pull 30 degrees nose-up to return to level flight, and an additional 180 degrees to complete the same reversal...  Who's coming around quicker?

There's more.  My opponent was in a dive as he passed me (i.e. still accelerating).  I'm nose up, so slowing down.  We're both above corner speed (so both will be limited in our ability to pull a sharp turn), but while I'm reversing I'll reach corner quicker, so will have a smaller turn radius.  On the other hand, he's more limited than me due to his speed.  He has to reverse 210 degrees to my 150, and he'll be doing it with a higher speed/larger radius.

There's more.  From what I've seen with a TON of people I've worked with in the TA is that two things are the "norm" during my opponents immelman.  One, he's not making any attempt to watch me as he pulls his immelman.  He's watching out of his front view (or front-up view) and hoping to reacquire me as he completes his immelman.  And two, he can't see me anyway because he's almost blacked out in his turn (at least with half or more of his view closed off).  That's three things in my favor so far, no matter what plane he's in.

The end result of all of this is that I'll generally come over the top of my immelman, roll wings level, and fire into his cockpit as he's still only partway through his immelman.  A variation is that my timing is off.  If that's the case, I may pull tighter (slower speed, but smaller, quicker reversal), or pull less tightly (faster, more retained E, slower reversal with a larger radius).  Or I may miss my shot, and pull for a second immelman to come back around behind my opponent.

As far as predictable behavior goes, when my opponent is about vertical in his immelman he'll reacquire view of me and react.  Most pilots won't know what to do, so you'll see some form of panic.  They might lock up, and just continue doing what's already getting them killed, or they may try some last squirm of one sort or another.  They don't have all that many options at that point, so if your gunnery is decent the fight is over.

An easy variation of this begins exactly the same, but is less aggressive.  I like to use it on a plane that's faster than my F4U (a pony, or 190, maybe) that I suspect will not commit to a hard immelman (often, I've been trying to draw him into a fight, but he's "lurking" above an won't commit).  The merge begins exactly the same, but I don't bring my nose up, and I just continue to fly past, watching for his immelman in my rear view.  If he flies past, I just keep going , and gradually turn back for another attempt.  Sometimes it takes a few tries to get him to pull the immelman.  If he pulls the immelman, I just keep going until I'm about 2K out, and then begin a climb.  He comes over the top, and is on my tail 2K out, but quickly closes to 1.5K.  It's just a rope at this point.  Keep my angle steep enough that he continues to gain (slower now, though) to keep him coming.  Don't get my angle too steep though, or he'll catch me...  I want him to stall out, or at least founder about 600-800 behind me just as I go vertical and begin dropping flaps.  Done just right, he's nearly stationary as I shoot through his cockpit.

The last variation I use a lot is more risky, and is for the guy who knows better than to let me have the advantages of the merge.  You recognize this guy because he's aggressive on the initial dive (just like me) and fights for the bottom of the merge.  It's a dangerous variation, because a guy like this knows enough to be a real handful.  On the other hand, he's predictable, and can be set up...  You need to kill him quick though...

It's a fun merge though, and if you lose it's just a game, right?  The merge works quite often though, because it's not predictable, while his reaction is...  I like to set this guy up to beat me on the first merge, so I can beat him on the second, and get right close on his tail for a shot.

To do that, I "fight" for the bottom position on the merge.  You have to look like you want it!  Let him "win" the bottom position, but make him think it was grudgingly!  As he goes under you, he'll pull up into his immelman and almost always be blind to you for a few seconds (read above).  He's drooling...  He's got you right where he wants you.  His confidence will make his actions predictable.  He's done this A LOT in the past; he'll do it again...

The moment he goes under you (while he's under you), roll hard left and pull a hard FLAT reversal.  You CANNOT go up, at all.  You must stay below him.  You'll lose sight of him, but you know where he is/will be.  He'll lose sight of you, and you won't be where he expects to find you.  As you finish your reversal, locate him above and in front of you.  He'll be most of the way through his immelman when he spots you (I can almost always see his plane roll a tad as he does this, lol).  When he sees you, it's almost a guarantee he dive in for the "easy kill".  As he does this, I pull up to pass under him (this is merge #2; I'm below him, heading up, he's above me, nose down, teehee!).  I "lost" the first merge, so I could "win" the second...  In this second merge, he'll almost always pull up in an angular zoom the moment he passes by you.  This isn't a great option for him.  You won't have much speed at this point, but will be able to roll and you'll be bringing your nose down by this point.  The effect is that you can roll right onto his tail at about 100yds.  He has too much speed left, and can't turn tight enough (he can get away if he keeps his nose down, but almost never will).  By pulling up like that he stays close enough for you to stay with him, but can't maneuver well enough to get away.  Clear as mud?  It's a tough one to describe.  If I can get into the game again soon I'll try to film it for you.
MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #172 on: April 09, 2012, 09:28:01 PM »
For me, almost all fights are variations of those basic things, with just a few other things tossed in.

A common theme for me is getting them to dive past me, while I go nose up. 

If they attack from above, I reverse early enough to set them up to dive in from my high right rear, while I'm in a gentle right-hand turn.  The more height they have above me, the more severe I want their dive to be.  I never want them directly above me though.  I want them at about my 4:30 behind/right, and about 2 o'clock high.  Does that make sense?  As they dive in, and the counter switches to about 1.5k, I pull up.  Not right at them, but about 30-40 degrees off.  I then "freeze" and go straight at that nose-up angle until I see them at about D800.  I then quickly roll left to show them my side, and "freeze" again (they're shifting aim now).  At D600, I pull hard to come over on my back, and begin rolling left again.  They'll shoot, but miss.

It all happens quickly, but that's about how my timing goes...

Again, I was going up, and they were going down as we passed (I consider it a merge of sorts, but will admit that is a stretch).  They have too much speed due to their dive, and have to pull up hard.  That scrubs E.  Let them go up (they won't go as high now), and repeat.  While they go up I'm level, and fly the direction I need to to put them as far from me horizontally as possible.  I do that mainly with that roll as they went by/fired.  As they prepare to come in again, I reverse back towards them to set them up to dive from my high right rear again.  A couple of times of this and I may need to change things up a tad, so I'll set them up to dive in on my high LEFT rear.  I prefer the high right rear though, because it allows me to roll left, and I seldom need to dodge that many attacks.

If they're aggressive they'll lose their E advantage within just a few passes, and will eventually try to dive in, slow down, and latch onto my tail.  I know it's coming, am watching for it, recognize it by the slower closure rate, and have a rolling scissors waiting for them.  If they're more conservative they'll give me more time between passes, and will retain their E better (as will I).  If they do that, I get them to act more aggressively by maximizing horizontal separation every time they go up.  They eventually get frustrated by this because they have to chase me down each time.  The result is that they will almost always try to fool me and change tactics to latch onto my tail.  I'm waiting for this, recognize it by the slower closure rate, and show them a rolling scissors.

So, back to the changing speeds, angles, etc idea.  In a general sense, to retain E I work harder to keep my speed up.  This results in "bigger" maneuvers, with less effort to turn sharply.  I may do this because I'm fighting a faster plane (109, pony, P38), or because I'm fighting a slower plane that has an E advantage over me (high spit) or because I'm fighting multiple planes at the same time.  It's all based on at-the-moment SA, and was learned by trial and error for the most part (I got absolutely slaughtered my first few years).

The "staples" of my fights are the angled "merges", rolling scissors and barrel roll defense, the "rope", and once in a while the scissors.  Honestly, if you can get those down you'll be in good shape for almost any MA 1v1, against any plane.

Lots of rambling; I hope that gives you some more specific answers.
MtnMan

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Offline Vudu15

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #173 on: April 09, 2012, 09:51:01 PM »
Damn right I do, so do the rest of the less experienced guys reading this.  We don't know the questions either.  Tell us about the "General principles and how to apply them!   We're hoping for more then the usual "practice and don't suck so much answers".  Quit assuming that we know what you are talking about.  Quit expecting that until we are able to even schedule several hours with trainers so that you can even talk to us...


This is the Training BBS, do us noobs a favor and talk us through scenarios...  Quit trying to wow us with rhetoric...


You know...  I know that air combat is a complex affair.  But then again, I have always felt that some of the general answers offered up are nothing more then the more talented folks telling the less talented folks to, "Get better at it."

Well....  duh...

I try to learn.  I watch films of more gifted pilots every chance I get.  I fight in the MA.  I fight when I have an advantage.  I fight when there is no advantage.  I fight at a disadvantage.  Heck, I'm not the worst dogfighter in Aces High.  

I will continue to learn general principles by attempting to apply them.  By watching those who apply them well...  Gleaning what I can...  By schedulng sessions with trainers...  etc etc  The same as I always have...

Why is it so hard for the experten to understand that more specific, "He is doing this, so I am going to try this...  because of..."  would be more useful then, "Practice and get better"?

For god's sake!  Practice what?  What am I looking for?  What is a mistake that a Spit16 driver might make that I can take advantage of in my Ki84 for example?  I hope that you can tell me to do more then "wait for him to screw up"...  That advice is worthless if I haven't learned what those screw ups are yet.  Give me one...  Co-alt in a Ki84 vs a Spit16, what is something that he might do that would make you think, "He screwed the pooch.  Now I'm going to..."  That knowledge is something that a student of air combat can build on better then the usual vague answers we see here...

Most of you who offer instruction here are TOO aware of the possible variations, and not aware enough that beginners need a starting point more then they need an "anything could happen so you better be ready" point

I admit that the Training Forum is more frustrating then helpful a lot of the time.  This thread, has had a few knowledge nuggets in it, and a whole lot of ego crap.

When are you more gifted pilots going to accept that a lesser pilot would benefit more from more specific examples of "If this...  then..."?  Somethimg that can be easily appilied and the built upon?!  We all know that there are such situations.  For instance, when I spend time with 2 weekers, I will tell them that, "If he flat turns, you are usually better off doing a vertical turn."  Sure it's pretty darn simple stuff, but it is something that a cartoon pilot eating cheetos at his desk while wearing navy blue sweat pants can understand and even use to his own advantage in the main arena.

Give the cheetos crowd something we can use, for god's sake!

((For the record, I don't even own any navy blue sweat pants...  Just saying.))


/rant against the useless BBS experten, not you specifically FLS.  Your post just set me off a bit.


Give me a few days and Ill get you something together that may work. :aok
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Online SAJ73

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #174 on: April 09, 2012, 10:37:42 PM »
dang mtnman, this should be posted in a sticky. Great stuff!  :aok

I do recognize alot of this, the way you describe how you defend when con is high behind you and you kinda turn into him as he gets closer. I also like to turn to the right like that, watching him through my up view as he gets closer. When he get's to D800 I point my right wing at him and starts to climb harder and harder till I get on my back. He'll pass under me as I roll left, and if I time it just right I might get a snapshot right there if he decides to climb back up.

But I would really love some training on some of those merge tactics, I also go for the lowest merge trying to get into the climb one split sec before the pass. But it's that part after that I could use some practice.. I usually ends up into a second merge, only higher and slower than the first one..  :rolleyes:

I have tried several tactics here, adjusting trottle to nose around faster, use flaps when I can.. etc etc But I never really nailed the permanent tactic that really do the trick, like that climb and roll move above. That one works really good as long as I got my speed up for it.  :aok
TheStig

Offline coombz

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2012, 10:44:39 PM »
that's great stuff mtnman :aok much appreciated

one question while we've got you in loquacious trainer mode...could you walk through how you go about initiating the rolling scissors when someone is trying to saddle you?

I'm not too bad in a rolling scissors but only really end up in those situations fairly randomly as opposed to setting a trap to initiate it...

using the barrel roll defense on someone who is cutting throttle and lining up to saddle me generally ends up with me in the tower :s
Did you see my dad on dogfights yet?
I'll be seeing you face to face possibly next month.

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2012, 10:53:20 PM »
dang mtnman, this should be posted in a sticky. Great stuff!  :aok

I do recognize alot of this, the way you describe how you defend when con is high behind you and you kinda turn into him as he gets closer. I also like to turn to the right like that, watching him through my up view as he gets closer. When he get's to D800 I point my right wing at him and starts to climb harder and harder till I get on my back. He'll pass under me as I roll left, and if I time it just right I might get a snapshot right there if he decides to climb back up.

But I would really love some training on some of those merge tactics, I also go for the lowest merge trying to get into the climb one split sec before the pass. But it's that part after that I could use some practice.. I usually ends up into a second merge, only higher and slower than the first one..  :rolleyes:

I have tried several tactics here, adjusting trottle to nose around faster, use flaps when I can.. etc etc But I never really nailed the permanent tactic that really do the trick, like that climb and roll move above. That one works really good as long as I got my speed up for it.  :aok

the problem is you are describing exactly what he is talking about...habit....which is very predictable...never always do the same set up...I have found that if the enemy is coming down at me and say he is angled even slightly  to the left, I will bank to the right, and vice versa... he will have to roll more so to come back to you...

also try to give yourself an opportunity to get below his nose before making a move, which when you time it right they expect you "here" but you come up "there"

Online SAJ73

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2012, 10:59:58 PM »
the problem is you are describing exactly what he is talking about...habit....which is very predictable...never always do the same set up...I have found that if the enemy is coming down at me and say he is angled even slightly  to the left, I will bank to the right, and vice versa... he will have to roll more so to come back to you...

also try to give yourself an opportunity to get below his nose before making a move, which when you time it right they expect you "here" but you come up "there"

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't always do the same though, but that's more because I'm still working and exploring on that part. Testing out what works and what not.. Usually I end up in the same sht anyway.. lol  :rofl
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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #178 on: April 09, 2012, 11:07:36 PM »
Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't always do the same though, but that's more because I'm still working and exploring on that part. Testing out what works and what not.. Usually I end up in the same sht anyway.. lol  :rofl

that's how you learn :aok


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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2012, 09:50:25 AM »
Excellent stuff Mtnman!  Exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping for when I started the thread.

I appreciate all of the time and effort you have put into it, and I'm certain that I'm not alone on that score.

 :salute

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