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Author Topic: Apache crash  (Read 1287 times)

Offline colmbo

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 09:22:32 AM »
Quote from: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:19:48 AM
Don't know, your the first one here who said anything about density altitude.

I can understand why density altitude would effect the maneuver but it was absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Well, if he was used to making that move at lower elevations working off his visual cues then attempted to use the same visual cues at a higher density altitude.......
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 09:25:01 AM »
Quote from: colmbo on March 23, 2012, 09:22:32 AM
Well, if he was used to making that move at lower elevations working off his visual cues then attempted to use the same visual cues at a higher density altitude.......

Yeah, I was responding to Golfer's question to my previous post.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 09:30:04 AM »
Quote from: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:21:13 AM
You sure that's not just because they were carrying heavy loads? I know they do rolling takeoffs when carrying lots of cargo even at sea level.

Even their Hinds needed rolling takeoffs carrying normal war loads.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 09:31:47 AM »
Quote from: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 09:30:04 AM
Even their Hinds needed rolling takeoffs carrying normal war loads.

What's a normal war load? Just fuel and missiles or troops too?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 11:00:07 AM »
Fuel and missiles. In a clean config the Hind has a flight ceiling of less than 15,000 feet. They were forced to fly at slower speeds too just to keep level flight, making themselves easier targets.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 11:03:42 AM »
Is 15K a lot for a helicopter?
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 11:10:07 AM »
Quote from: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:19:48 AM
Don't know, your the first one here who said anything about density altitude.

I can understand why density altitude would effect the maneuver but it was absolutely nothing to do with my post.

When you said that maneuver is done visually I too thought it was in response to my pressure altitude comment, with you thinking  I though that he calibrated his altimeter wrong or something.
And to be technical, since this forum loves arguing over peanuts, it's not a far stretch to say that Pressure Altitude is higher than Density Altitude in this video.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2012, 11:12:25 AM »
Quote from: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 11:03:42 AM
Is 15K a lot for a helicopter?

It's not stellar. By comparison a clean Apache has a ceiling of 21,000 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

Good doc on the Hind. Be weary of any info from the narrator, but there are many interesting interviews with Russian pilots and paratroopers, and the pilot of the U.S. OPFOR Hind.

Oh, and the title is wrong too... It's not from 1988.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:14:39 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 11:15:32 AM »
Quote from: SFRT - Frenchy on March 23, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
When you said that maneuver is done visually I too thought it was in response to my pressure altitude comment, with you thinking  I though that he calibrated his altimeter wrong or something.
And to be technical, since this forum loves arguing over peanuts, it's not a far stretch to say that Pressure Altitude is higher than Density Altitude in this video.



Yeah that's what I first thought but I did get what you said eventually (after I made the post).
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"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 11:17:00 AM »
Quote from: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 11:12:25 AM
It's not stellar. By comparison a clean Apache has a ceiling of 21,000 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

Good doc on the Hind. Be weary of any info from the narrator, but there are many interesting interviews with Russian pilots and paratroopers, and the pilot of the U.S. OPFOR Hind.

Oh, and the title is wrong too... It's not from 1988.


I don't have time to watch it at the moment, but I will do it today.
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"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2012, 11:29:23 AM »
Oh and I forgot to mention the doc also has interviews with Afghan rebels that fought the Hind. All-in-all a very interesting episode of Wings.
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Offline GNucks

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2012, 02:06:20 PM »
I'm having trouble imagining why a rotary wing aircraft might need forward speed to take off. From my understanding hovering should be the easiest task for a helicopter to do because all the lift from the rotors is directed straight up. Unless the fuselage design provides some inherent lift itself?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2012, 02:47:41 PM »
Think how an autogyro works. Rotary wings are still wings and if you can build up some forward speed on the ground it helps lifting off. The Hind also have wings which provide 20-30% of the lift at speed.
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2012, 02:59:19 PM »
Gnuk, probably like thr Harriers, when fully loaded they use significantly less fuel when doing some short rolling take off rather than a pure vto.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Apache crash
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2012, 04:08:52 PM »
Quote from: GNucks on March 23, 2012, 02:06:20 PM
I'm having trouble imagining why a rotary wing aircraft might need forward speed to take off. From my understanding hovering should be the easiest task for a helicopter to do because all the lift from the rotors is directed straight up. Unless the fuselage design provides some inherent lift itself?

Helicopters gain a lot of "translational lift" in forward flight.  This is significantly more lift than gained from the rotor blades in a stationary hover.

I also suspect that the high altitude played a part in the incident...  The visual cues may have been fine for that same maneuver accomplished at low alt but the turn radius will be larger and available lift is usually going to be lower at higher altitudes so you need more margin for the maneuvers.

The USAF has nearly 100 years of experience telling us that it's a dumb idea to hot-dog at low altitude, and we've been pretty harsh on pilots who get caught doing this kind of thing in the last 20 or so years.  I suppose the Army has a little different perspective on such things.
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