Collisions

[Skuzzy]

It could be ... I'm just making a general approximation, to illustrate my point. Which is: that the present collision model is structured and understood by a small minority of players and DOES provide them some advantage. It is disliked and misunderstood by the majority of players

This is incorrect and has no basis in reality.  

The current collision system takes into account the current limitations of networking players together from all over the world.  No one has yet to propose a better method to implement it, which does not have worse side effects.

Being disliked or liked is irrelevant.

[EVZ]

Turning into the attack does not mean doing an HO.  If you evade away from an attack it is much easier for the attacker to pull in on your tail than if you evade into an attack.

Ok... you've turned your P51 escort into the 109s coming down at you ... Now ... do you ... A) turn away and give them the angle you just denied them? B) "Evade" them and allow them to attack the bombers you are protecting? c) HO ... ??? Reality Baby ... BTW, they are NOT time displaced and if THEY collide with YOU ... you will NOT fly away ...

[Karnak]

When I break into the attack I do not pull all the way into an HO.  As I approach the Bf109s I pull up into a bit of a climb and roll onto my side and begin my turn onto the tail of the Bf109s.  As I have begun my turn before we've even passed each other I am well ahead on getting into position before the Bf109 that was trying for the HO has even begun to roll for his turn.

[EVZ]

When I break into the attack I do not pull all the way into an HO.  As I approach the Bf109s I pull up into a bit of a climb and roll onto my side and begin my turn onto the tail of the Bf109s.  As I have begun my turn before we've even passed each other I am well ahead on getting into position before the Bf109 that was trying for the HO has even begun to roll for his turn.

His turn? he's not after you ... he's after the bombers you are NOT protecting, cause YOU chickened out and let him into the henhouse ... He'll make his run, zoom, hit his wep and get into position to do it again ... because YOU LET HIM.

Also, you see, this isn't a 1V1 ... there are likely 4 - 12 109s involved, a few MAY be tasked to deal with escorts ... they're WAITING for you to do what you just did ... when you evaded the ho, one of them latched onto YOU and you will be VERY BUSY for a while TRYING to stay alive rather than protecting the bombers ... Your CO isn't going to be happy with you, if you survive ... Your BUDDIES accepted the HO (and the risk). They tried to prevent as many 109s as possible from getting to the bombers ... that's THEIR JOB.

[Ack-Ack]

Pilots still learn to dogfight because it keeps them confident and efficient, not because anybody expects they will ever use the skill.

That is completely incorrect as later conflicts have shown.  It was popular thought during the '50s with the advent of jets that "dogfighting" was a thing of the past as jets were too fast and missiles were thought to be primary factors in jet engagements that guns weren't really that needed anymore.  Vietnam showed the folly of this line of thought and which is why we have fighter schools like Top Gun to teach "dogfighting" and close air to air engagements which came out of lessons learned from Vietnam and earlier conflicts.

ack-ack

[AKP]

(nevermind)

[Ack-Ack]

Ok... you've turned your P51 escort into the 109s coming down at you ... Now ... do you ... A) turn away and give them the angle you just denied them? B) "Evade" them and allow them to attack the bombers you are protecting? c) HO ... ??? Reality Baby ... BTW, they are NOT time displaced and if THEY collide with YOU ... you will NOT fly away ...

If a Bf 109 is coming at me, I will create seperation at the merge that will allow me to turn into the attacker for a lead turn angle for the shot on the merge or to get onto their six after the merge.  I will not merge with the intent of going head on with the attacker, it's a stupid tactic that anyone with any sort of experience or skill will try to avoid.  

It is obvious that you do not have any understanding of ACM nor the tactics to employ them or any understanding of merge tactic or how to employ a proper merge.  That is why you collide.

ack-ack

[RTHolmes]

Pilots still learn to dogfight because it keeps them confident and efficient, not because anybody expects they will ever use the skill. This was discovered quite some time ago ... when they took away the guns, moral and efficiency suffered. VERY LITTLE $$$ is actually spent on such training and ? I know of NO current tactical plans for either attack or defense that incorporate "dogfighting." EXPERIENCE dictates that it's better to be prepared for the unexpected ... and SHOULD it happen, we will be ... I approve, but lets keep it in perspective ... this isn't hollywood.

wow. someone better go tell the fast jet pilots they are wasting their time learning ACM.

[Zodiac]

His turn? he's not after you ... he's after the bombers you are NOT protecting, cause YOU chickened out and let him into the henhouse ... He'll make his run, zoom, hit his wep and get into position to do it again ... because YOU LET HIM.

Also, you see, this isn't a 1V1 ... there are likely 4 - 12 109s involved, a few MAY be tasked to deal with escorts ... they're WAITING for you to do what you just did ... when you evaded the ho, one of them latched onto YOU and you will be VERY BUSY for a while TRYING to stay alive rather than protecting the bombers ... Your CO isn't going to be happy with you, if you survive ... Your BUDDIES accepted the HO (and the risk). They tried to prevent as many 109s as possible from getting to the bombers ... that's THEIR JOB.

You should probably spend sometime checking out all the gun cam footage, After action reports or any doctrine outlined by the actual pilots involved in these engagements you can find, let us know how many of those detail that the way that interceptors were engaged were done so using a Head On pass. Take into account one fact and this 'theory' makes no sense, a head on pass with a 109 would require the belief that their 6 .50 caliber guns (using a Mustang for example) would down or cripple the 109 BEFORE the 109 was able to line up and fire his 20 or 30 millimeter Cannons. Even if the Mustang were to down the 109 he would have to do so before the 109 could fire an accurate burst of his own, since the rounds would still send him either spiraling to the ground, or outright kill him. Not a risk to take if you plan on surviving the war. They didn't have unlimited lives to try again.

And for Drano's statement that you quoted, see where he says he was waiting for the "205's nose to drop so he could put a burst into the canopy"?  That's not a HO, it would have been a top down shot, just like diving on someone from above and firing into his cockpit.

On an added note: If you research it, you will begin to see that in many if not most cases following "Big Week" the bombers were basically bait to lure the Luftwaffe up so that the Allied fighters could engage them, sounds like a so called "furball" doesn't it.

[EVZ]

They didn't have unlimited lives to try again.

That's right, and they put those lives ON THE LINE to protect the bomber crews depending on THEM as a first line of defense ... They weren't there for the scenic views ... or the "fun fights".

And for Drano's statement that you quoted, see where he says he was waiting for the "205's nose to drop

Which would indicate a NOSE UP attitude wouldn't it ??? Drano was betting the guy didn't have the E to COMPLETE the HO ... He lost.
 

On an added note: If you research it, you will begin to see that in many if not most cases following "Big Week" the bombers were basically bait to lure the Luftwaffe up so that the Allied fighters could engage them,

Sounds completely NUTS ... is what it sounds like ... Exactly HOW MANY bombers and airmen are you speculating were LOST while being used as BAIT? Strategic bombing decimated the german aircraft industry and fuel reserves ... there was NEVER any question of air superiority around or even NEAR the front lines. VERY late in the war, as the Russians closed in on Berlin and Patton cooled his heels, allied aircraft were freed for fighter sweeps and agressive incursions on german airbases, most of which they found EMPTY.

[Karnak]

If you commit to the HO with the Bf109s in your scenario you get one shot and one shot only, you'll never make it back before they have attacked.  If you do a lead turn you will be right behind the Bf109s and can put pressure on many of them.

Remember, the '51s would not be doing close escort, co alt and speed with the bombers, so don't make a fake scenario where they have to respond from such a position.

[VonMessa]

If you commit to the HO with the Bf109s in your scenario you get one shot and one shot only, you'll never make it back before they have attacked.  If you do a lead turn you will be right behind the Bf109s and can put pressure on many of them.

Remember, the '51s would not be doing close escort, co alt and speed with the bombers, so don't make a fake scenario where they have to respond from such a position.

There you guys go, trying to make his head explode again with pilot mumbo-jumbo...

[Ack-Ack]

That's right, and they put those lives ON THE LINE to protect the bomber crews depending on THEM as a first line of defense ... They weren't there for the scenic views ... or the "fun fights".

Your examples of using close escorts to try and prove your point isn't a very good one for number of reasons.

The simple truth is, fighter escorts really didn't work out that well.  Something the Germans learned during the Battle of Britain and something the USAAF was to learn later on in the war.  

The main problem is that the escorts were initially in a close escort formation with the order to never leave the bombers.  Unfortunately, due to the close proximity of the escort formation, it was unable to prevent an intercepting group from making high speed head on passes and since the escorts had to stay in close formation, they couldn't prevent multiple attacks by the same intercepting group.  

It wasn't until the 8th AF rescinded the order to stay with the bombers and allowed the escort fighters to free roam in front and the flanks of the bomber stream, with the intent of intercepting the Luftwaffe fighters before they were able to form up and attack the bombers.  For example, it took at least 10 miles of undisturbed flying for a formation of intercepting fighters to form up for a head on attack against the bombers, something that was almost impossible to do with Allied escort fighters free roaming ahead of the bomber stream.  The most effective escorts are the ones you don't see from the bomber stream since they are intercepting the attacking fighters before they get within visual range of the bombers.

These fights often degenerated to nothing more than swirling planes in a dogfight.  Read Bud Anderson's book if you think otherwise.


ack-ack

[Drano]

I didn't fly into his nose--I flew into his wing. The TOP of his wing. I did everything but shoot the guy. Because I didn't see him well enough. My bad. That time. As I said I made up for it a few minutes later.

Don't try to act like you know about this. Your stats won't lie for you. Your stats shout out that you know nothing.

Another swing and a miss. Keep driving the tanks buddy.

[Drano]

There you guys go, trying to make his head explode again with pilot mumbo-jumbo...

Like having a conversation on quantum physics with an eskimo