amd vs intel for education

[Skuzzy]

That would be like tuning a volkswagen beetle with a fiber glass chassis kit and calling it a Ferrari

OSX works so well because Apple controls the hardware. When you start to blend in general off the shelf hardware nobody guarantees it will work anymore.

I don't know what was the problem in Skuzzys case but whatever it was it's highly unusual. I don't understand why nobody tried reinstalling the OS for example when the stability problem started.

Rip, I do not know everything that was tried on that computer.  All I know is the company decided not to go with Apple due to the down time, frustration with all involved, and lack of support from Apple.

I look around here (all Windows based) and other than building new computers, there has only been instances of downtime totaling about 20 hours in the last 11 years.  The Wife's company is the same way.  Insignificant amounts of downtime, until the Apple experiment.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Rip, I do not know everything that was tried on that computer.  All I know is the company decided not to go with Apple due to the down time, frustration with all involved, and lack of support from Apple.

I look around here (all Windows based) and other than building new computers, there has only been instances of downtime totaling about 20 hours in the last 11 years.  The Wife's company is the same way.  Insignificant amounts of downtime, until the Apple experiment.

Well this was obviously not Apples fault but the people handling the support. I would have been able to assess the situation in 30 minutes and determine if it was a hardware problem or not. A mac is not an ouja board, it follows the same computational basics as any other OS. During the years our company has used macs I've seen only two problems. One was my MBP dying due to faulty nvidia chipset (which I revived by using a hot air gun to re-solder the surface soldered components) and other was having wifi problems due to first editions of OSX Lion. The wifi problems were gone after a patch - but drove me crazy in the meanwhile. I had to manually define the network settings or use a wired connection if I wanted safari or OSX updates to work. Firefox and chrome worked just fine

[2bighorn]

That would be like tuning a volkswagen beetle with a fiber glass chassis kit and calling it a Ferrari

Not even remotely. Top quality hardware (in many cases better than whatever is in Apple boxes), matching the performance on component by component basis, lets say Mac Pro, will be 30-40% cheaper.
For example, 8GB ECC top quality memory for Mac Pro will cost you under $200, Apple wants $375, 8GB for iMac under $100, Apple charges $200. Pretty high markup, don't you think?

And installing OSX on such a self-build machine it really is a trivial exercise.

OSX works so well because Apple controls the hardware.

No, OSX works well becasue it's based on solid OS, and hardware is overpriced because Apple controls it.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Not even remotely. Top quality hardware (in many cases better than whatever is in Apple boxes), matching the performance on component by component basis, lets say Mac Pro, will be 30-40% cheaper.
For example, 8GB ECC top quality memory for Mac Pro will cost you under $200, Apple wants $375, 8GB for iMac under $100, Apple charges $200. Pretty high markup, don't you think?

And installing OSX on such a self-build machine it really is a trivial exercise.

No, OSX works well becasue it's based on solid OS, and hardware is overpriced because Apple controls it.

Heh, no. OSX works well because it's optimized for a predetermined setup. Apple doesn't have to support 3 billion different hardware configurations like windows has to - and what hackintosh people are trying to do. There's simply no guarantee there is even driver support for any of your hackintosh components - unless they happen to be ones already present in Apple models.

I know the components are overpriced. So is a Ferrari. If you want good value buy a Toyota.

[guncrasher]

Heh, no. OSX works well because it's optimized for a predetermined setup. Apple doesn't have to support 3 billion different hardware configurations like windows has to - and what hackintosh people are trying to do. There's simply no guarantee there is even driver support for any of your hackintosh components - unless they happen to be ones already present in Apple models.

I know the components are overpriced. So is a Ferrari. If you want good value buy a Toyota.

mrripley give it up apple is not a Ferrari.  it's just an overpriced Toyota pretending to be a Ferrari.

semp

[MrRiplEy[H]]

mrripley give it up apple is not a Ferrari.  it's just an overpriced Toyota pretending to be a Ferrari.

semp

Heh, ok. What would you consider to be the Ferrari of the computer world? I.e. high performance, premium price and premium quality? No windows machine applies. No linux machine applies. No BSD machine applies. What's left?

[Skuzzy]

Apple is the Ferrari of marketing.  The hardware is nothing special at all.  The computers are all off-the-shelf components wrapped in a pretty case.  You pay a premium for them due to the low sales volume and Apples penchant for demanding 400%+ gross profit margins (take alook at their financials sometime). The OS is just another OS.  Apple makes as many design mistakes (hardare and software) as any other company.

[2bighorn]

Heh, ok. What would you consider to be the Ferrari of the computer world? I.e. high performance, premium price and premium quality? No windows machine applies. No linux machine applies. No BSD machine applies. What's left?

Ah c'mon, have you never heard of something like SGI and their Indigo, Onyx and Octane workstations? Octane III had 20 Xeons cluster. How's that for Ferrari?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Apple is the Ferrari of marketing.  The hardware is nothing special at all.  The computers are all off-the-shelf components wrapped in a pretty case.  You pay a premium for them due to the low sales volume and Apples penchant for demanding 400%+ gross profit margins (take alook at their financials sometime). The OS is just another OS.  Apple makes as many design mistakes (hardare and software) as any other company.

This is a matter of opinnion. OSX is very intuitive and easy to use and so are most of the softwares built for it. I'm not claiming OSX is perfect. But it beats windows any time. Ever tried connecting your laptop to bluetooth audio for example?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Ah c'mon, have you never heard of something like SGI and their Indigo, Onyx and Octane workstations? Octane III had 20 Xeons cluster. How's that for Ferrari?

Actually I haven't heard about them and I doubt most of the consumers either. You must be talking about non-consumer products there.

[Skuzzy]

This is a matter of opinnion. OSX is very intuitive and easy to use and so are most of the softwares built for it. I'm not claiming OSX is perfect. But it beats windows any time. Ever tried connecting your laptop to bluetooth audio for example?

Really, it is not a matter of opinion and you just proved it.  There is nothing intutive about using any type of computer GUI, but Apple has you convinced.  That is good marketing at work.  When you are a pawn and do not realize it, they did their job.  I have worked in marketing and the marketing folks at Apple just did a 'high five' when you made that statement.

I do not use laptops, and I certainly never use wireless, for computer comms.  Picking some esoteric function, of any OS, and citing it the reason it is better, strikes me as being desparate to prove a point.

If you want to play that game, pick something more common, such as how to get a CD/DVD out of the Macbook Pro drive.  If anyone wants a good laugh, search that on Google and read the various forums and see how many answers you get.  It is a hoot.  Real intutive.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Really, it is not a matter of opinion and you just proved it.  There is nothing intutive about using any type of computer GUI, but Apple has you convinced.  That is good marketing at work.  When you are a pawn and do not realize it, they did their job.  I have worked in marketing and the marketing folks at Apple just did a 'high five' when you made that statement.

I do not use laptops, and I certainly never use wireless, for computer comms.  Picking some esoteric function, of any OS, and citing it the reason it is better, strikes me as being desparate to prove a point.

If you want to play that game, pick something more common, such as how to get a CD/DVD out of the Macbook Pro drive.  If anyone wants a good laugh, search that on Google and read the various forums and see how many answers you get.  It is a hoot.  Real intutive.

I used to be a mac hater like you before I was forced to start to use it through my work. So much for your theory about marketing

I shared all your frustrations when I had to learn a new way of thinking while using the mac. Now I prefer to use the mac 10 out of 10 times for any general task. Only gaming is an area where windows beats macs.

If your biggest problem is how to get a cd out of a drive then one would say things are very good indeed when comparing to the cluster duck windows is. By the way there are several ways to eject a cd. One is the obvious eject button (which just happens to be in a different place from a windows machine - again, stuck on windows), second is going to the cd image icon on your desktop and choosing 'eject' from one of the menus available i.e. right click menu, control click menu, top of the display menu always present... (one would think a veteran pc user such as you would have thunkit), third way is to click the 'eject' button in finder (equivalent of windows explorer) - the final and ridiculously obvious way is to drag the cd image to the trashcan which causes the cd to eject.

Once you think about it, the only and single reason why you and I both were hammering their heads to find the eject button was because we were stuck on windows way of thinking. OSX is different. I know from personal experience that people who bash it most likely just lack experience and have no clue about what they're talking. You're obviously a very experienced PC user Roy, but this time I think you're just being conservative and fear the unknown

[Skuzzy]

Let's be very clear.  I have an equal disdain for ANY GUI.  Even UNIX based ones.

It has nothing to with what I am used to.  I have used Apple computers quite a bit in my career.  Always thought the way they did things was screwy.  I think Microsoft does screwy things too.  I think X Windows is also a bit weird.

Eject buttons come with ROM devices which is why everyone is used to the eject button being near the door.  It has nothing to do with the OS or Apple or Microsoft.  Apple is the only one who decided not to put an eject button near the door.  So much for intuitive.

the final and ridiculously obvious way is to drag the cd image to the trashcan which causes the cd to eject.

 Oh yeah, everyone is born knowing that.  By the way, you notice most of the methods rely on an ICON.  What happens when there is no ICON?

Reminds me of the time Apple had to place an engineer in my office to keep an Apple computer running while I worked on a driver.  On more than one occasion the power button stopped working.  Because, as we all know, the power button is not a mechanical device on an Apple computer.  It is a software device.  Works fine until it does not.  The engineer had to take the computer back to Apple on several occasions due to the power button not working any longer because of some corruption in the ROM.

Little things like that make an Apple special.  It does not make them intuitive/instinctive.  How is anyone born with an innate knowledge of how Apple decides things should be done?

One day my Wife and I were out and about and she asked me to call her Mom as she was making some notes for work.  I did not have my cheap little flip phone with me, so she gave me her Samsung Galaxy.  I looked at it and turned to her and went, "How do you make a phone call?"

She looks at me and very frustratingly states, "What do you mean?"  I turned the phone to her and pointed at it and asked, "How do you make a phone call with this?"  She gave up, took it away from me, did some kind of finger exercises on the screen and made the call.  Even after watching her, there is no way I could ever make a phone call with that phone.  Yet, people say it is intuitive.  They say the same thing about the iPhone.

I really think people do not know what the word, "intuitive", means.  Personally, I have an aversion to any type of GUI.  They get in my way and I really do not like them.  My way of thinking is, if you are going to learn to use a computer, then learn to use the computer and not some awkward GUI.

That said, I did write a text/ASCII based context sensitive interface for users to use who did not want to learn how to use a computer.  It was UNIX based and did not require a mouse.  Single keystrokes opened files, started applications or both.  My thought was if your using a word processor, then why should you take your hands off the keyboard.  Everything was tightly integrated, easy to use, and easy to administrate.  It was very popular.  My Wife still uses it.

So when you start telling me I do not like something because I am not used to it, I have to giggle a bit.  On the other hand, you have to make some type of rationalization in order to support your arguments and I guess that is as good as any, even if there is no basis in truth.

My opinion of Apple, or Microsoft, or UNIX OS's is not based on ignorance.  It is based on actual usage of all those OS's.  You argue Apple's way is intuitive.  I argue there is no such thing as anyone being born with a instinctive understanding of how any GUI works.  Show me the DNA evidence to prove me wrong.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Let's be very clear.  I have an equal disdain for ANY GUI.  Even UNIX based ones.

It has nothing to with what I am used to.  I have used Apple computers quite a bit in my career.  Always thought the way they did things was screwy.  I think Microsoft does screwy things too.  I think X Windows is also a bit weird.

Eject buttons come with ROM devices which is why everyone is used to the eject button being near the door.  It has nothing to do with the OS or Apple or Microsoft.  Apple is the only one who decided not to put an eject button near the door.  So much for intuitive.
  Oh yeah, everyone is born knowing that.  By the way, you notice most of the methods rely on an ICON.  What happens when there is no ICON?

Hmm, if there is no icon the media is already ejected. In which way in your opinnion, is windows more intuitive in ways of ejecting the media? Unless you know exactly what you're doing it's going to be difficult in windows - not to mention in CLI.

Reminds me of the time Apple had to place an engineer in my office to keep an Apple computer running while I worked on a driver.  On more than one occasion the power button stopped working.  Because, as we all know, the power button is not a mechanical device on an Apple computer.  It is a software device.  Works fine until it does not.  The engineer had to take the computer back to Apple on several occasions due to the power button not working any longer because of some corruption in the ROM.

Older Apple models were quirky or so I've heard. I have no personal experience from those days. I can only speak for post-intel era Macs.

Little things like that make an Apple special.  It does not make them intuitive/instinctive.  How is anyone born with an innate knowledge of how Apple decides things should be done?

How do people learn to use a complicated smart phone like the iPhone with no user manual? It's simple. It works. It's intuitive. The first minute I held it in my hand I already was familiar with all the basic functionality that was needed to place calls, sms, navigate or use the net. A big contrast to my previous Nokia communicator that was an absolute nightmare.

One day my Wife and I were out and about and she asked me to call her Mom as she was making some notes for work.  I did not have my cheap little flip phone with me, so she gave me her Samsung Galaxy.  I looked at it and turned to her and went, "How do you make a phone call?"

She looks at me and very frustratingly states, "What do you mean?"  I turned the phone to her and pointed at it and asked, "How do you make a phone call with this?"  She gave up, took it away from me, did some kind of finger exercises on the screen and made the call.  Even after watching her, there is no way I could ever make a phone call with that phone.  Yet, people say it is intuitive.  They say the same thing about the iPhone.

Yep, Samsung is an Android phone. I think the 'roid' in Android is a derivative of hemorrhoids. I made the mistake of buying an android phone to my kid - I spent half night trying to figure out how to do stuff with it. Something as simple as a USB connection requires a pull-down menu and whatnot to achieve.

I really think people do not know what the word, "intuitive", means.  Personally, I have an aversion to any type of GUI.  They get in my way and I really do not like them.  My way of thinking is, if you are going to learn to use a computer, then learn to use the computer and not some awkward GUI.

For people who are not accustomed to using any particular system, a clear GUI is a must. I didn't need to think how to get things done with the iPhone. It was obvious and it worked on the first go.

That said, I did write a text/ASCII based context sensitive interface for users to use who did not want to learn how to use a computer.  It was UNIX based and did not require a mouse.  Single keystrokes opened files, started applications or both.  My thought was if your using a word processor, then why should you take your hands off the keyboard.  Everything was tightly integrated, easy to use, and easy to administrate.  It was very popular.  My Wife still uses it.

Keyboard based interfaces are super slick but require remembering key commands by heart. Once you achieve that it's a dream to use. Our own software utilizes key shortcuts - we do have a GUI with menus and stuff but you can do everything through key shortcuts.

So when you start telling me I do not like something because I am not used to it, I have to giggle a bit.  On the other hand, you have to make some type of rationalization in order to support your arguments and I guess that is as good as any, even if there is no basis in truth.

My opinion of Apple, or Microsoft, or UNIX OS's is not based on ignorance.  It is based on actual usage of all those OS's.  You argue Apple's way is intuitive.  I argue there is no such thing as anyone being born with a instinctive understanding of how any GUI works.  Show me the DNA evidence to prove me wrong.

You're going very defensive there The proof is in the pudding. I garantee that an average person learns how to use an Apple product much faster than any windows/linux based product so far. Perhaps win8 will change that - or take it to a worse direction. Haven't tried it yet.

When I recommended the OP to get his niece a mac, I did it from my personal experience. I used windows/linux based computers for well over a decade untill my business partner talked me over to switching to a mac. At first I cursed him to the lowest of hell - but after using OSX for a couple of years I never boot to windows anymore unless I absolutely must. Everything is simpler, easyer and generally just works better, not just the OS but also third party software which I found the most amazing.

How you can't see that is beyond me.

I don't mean to make this an extended argument. You're entitled to your opinnion as I am to mine. Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree

[Skuzzy]

If you think people are born with some knowledge of how to use a computer GUI then we cannot have any reasonable conversation about the topic.  So far, you have not proven anything, but you have been defending your opinion as if it were fact.  From where I sit, you bought into the marketing in a big way.  You just do not realize it.

You can "guarantee" all you like.  It does not mean it is true.  My Wife had to use Apple computers in school and she grew to hate them.  "That is the most convoluted piece of carp I have ever had to use", was her experience.  Her opinion was only reinforced with the latest Apple debacle.

To eject a disc in UNIX, usually the "umount" command works, or you just press the eject button, if it is not mounted.  That is as intuitive as Apples's way.  You just press the button with Microsoft as well.  Again, the button next to the door taught us how to eject the discs.

Smartphones, for me, are generally clumsy devices and awkward to use.  I just want a phone that will make calls.  I can hold and dial mine in one hand.  There is nothing obvious about the iPhone or Droids.  They all seem to be extreme time wasters.


My context based shell had the keystrokes on the screen, next to each item.  Nothing to memorize.  You could change them if you wanted to.  Directories were marked with a '/' on the end of the name.  There was a create and remove mode.  The shell started in edit mode.

I get that you like Apple.  Fine by me.  Just stop with the claims of it being "intuitive".  No one is born knowing how to use a computer.  The first time any child sees a computer all they see are pretty pictures.  There is nothing they get from that display that is going to trigger an instinctive response to click on something with a mechanical device not part of their own body.

There is nothing about a smart phone which is going to activate an instinctive response to wipe their finger across the screen to get to something.

No one is born with that knowledge.