Ki 64 inverted Stall/Spin

[Ruah]

ok, I can reproduce it somewhat and i was wondering what advise anyone has to get out of a nasty inverted flat spin stall in the ki 84.

low e situation, you go up full power and possibly wep.  You deploy flaps at the top of your climb and come over the top of your loop.  you throttle back to bring the nose around, and instead the plane starts a slow spinning flat stall down to the ground.  

attempts to 'rock' the  plane (like with the 152) by throttling off and on the engine, with rudder and aileron input does nothing - it does not rock, budge or dislodge at all.  

Now avoiding it is to not throttle down at the top of a low e stall in the inverted and to let the plane roll over with engine torque, but with the flaps, you can hang, and I have been caught in this twice now and was wondering if there were any tricks to getting out of it should i do it again.

As far as I can tell, unlike the 152 stall that can be used as a last ditch escape (since it can be recovered from given a few thousand feet) this move causes you to fall canopy first into the ground and has no ACM utility.

note - the title should say ki 84. . .somehow I wrote 64. . . silly me

[wil3ur]

In my ineptitude the 109K does something similar, my first reaction is to do standard stall recovery with nose down and opposite rudder...  I've found that that leads to a struggle that nearly always ends up near the ground.  The only thing I've found to really counter the deathspin is to pull excess G's in the initial nosedown, then go neutral stick/rudder, as much flaps as you can kick out and full throttle/wep torqeu the plane underneath until the wings catch and try and stop the manuver with the nose down and pulling flaps back and extend as much as possible.  I normally end up in that position due to depseration, and that manuver is even worse...


Great question.   

[FTJR]

Engine off, drop the gear, retract the flaps,

stops the engine torque, moves the CofG, increases the stall speed.

massage the elevators to get its nose down.

hope you have 5k to play with.

[Ruah]

The K4 has a LOT more torque, so I have never really had problems with it in the spin - it is super easy to 'rock'.  

This issue is that there is no more e left at the top, and, the flaps are part of the problem - if you don't deploy the flaps, then you stall at a faster speed and always recover (the nose comes down earlier and you still have a little authority.)  This is a nasty inverted flat spin that happens at the top end of the loop over, the trick to avoid it is to get the plane turned around so are not inverted anymore (roll with the torque - let the torque roll you - do not fight the plane correcting itself - and rolling a little is a good sign) but if you keep pulling the stick to get over the top, the plane will get just hang there and fall straight down - thus causing the inverted flat stall which is deadly.

yes, I pull the flaps right away, I cut the engine in the hopes that the weight of the engine will pull the nose down - but this has not worked (not for 8k anyway).  As for the gears - this is an inverted flat spin, the gears will be facing up. . .does that have an effect?  It is a common correction for the 152 to deploy the gears - but in truth the gears do no actually help and actually make the 'rocking' harder - so it is a stall recovery myth. (and a question realism - while I know it can be done - I would be surprised to hear that WW2 planes had enough hydraulics to deploy their gears inverted - that they probably needed help from gravity.)

anyway it did not work.

it is probably a total embarrassment death regardless - but if there is a trick - I am all ears.

cheers

[Mitsu.]

I did it in other planes...

[FLS]

 - but if there is a trick - I am all ears.

FTJR told you a trick. You were more mouth than ears. No offense. I don't know if it works in the Ki-84 but I would try it before I dismiss it.

[kilo2]

FTJR told you a trick. You were more mouth than ears. No offense. I don't know if it works in the Ki-84 but I would try it before I dismiss it.

Gear don't help. They don't in the 152 they don't in ki-84. Tried it in both of those.

You can recover without them.

[morfiend]

Gear don't help. They don't in the 152 they don't in ki-84. Tried it in both of those.

You can recover without them.

 Just because you can recover without dropping gear doesnt mean that it wont help!

 Try to get a spit1 out of an inverted flat spin without lowering gear!

  The gear do 2 things as someone else said they create drag and they change the CoG and this can make the difference between recovery and a big black spot on the ground. Turning engine off,not just cutting throttle will also help but the OP made his mistake by cutting power at top of loop to bring nose over.


  YMMV.


   

[ink]

I fly the 84 pretty much exclusively....I haven't figured out how to get out of it, (although never tried dropping gear) I just figured out how not to get into it.....

keep the nose at a lesser angle while climbing inverted, I always go inverted before I loop over the top, this totally got rid of that nasty flat spin.

[Widewing]

I fly the 84 pretty much exclusively....I haven't figured out how to get out of it, (although never tried dropping gear) I just figured out how not to get into it.....

keep the nose at a lesser angle while climbing inverted, I always go inverted before I loop over the top, this totally got rid of that nasty flat spin.

I can tell you how to get out of it... I experimented with this a few years ago while doing my Trainer thing...

Shut off the engine... It's that simple. The nose will drop and you can restart and resume flying. Try it offline a few times.

[ink]

I can tell you how to get out of it... I experimented with this a few years ago while doing my Trainer thing...

Shut off the engine... It's that simple. The nose will drop and you can restart and resume flying. Try it offline a few times.

I will try that, I do have my engine start/stop programed to my stick so that's an easy one, never tried that or the gear....I see people doing that in a fight and it makes me laugh...so I just never thought about doing it to get out of any stall.


gonna go try it right now

will give my results

[ink]

 

oh my word

first it was hard to even get it to go into the stall, took a few tries finally got it to stall, killed engine, nose immediately drop below SOG....wow easy 

[Ruah]

did you drop the gear - or was that not nessisary.

That is odd really, since I do cut my engine off. . . I guess I just did not have enough alt before everything could normalize.

[ink]

did you drop the gear - or was that not nessisary.

That is odd really, since I do cut my engine off. . . I guess I just did not have enough alt before everything could normalize.

nope never dropped the gear, and I was only about 3K....as soon as I killed engine the nose dropped below level...and then its easy...

I honestly had a hard time getting it to stall,  in my early days of flying it it happened often, I just got used to avoiding it....but I was pushing it about 2 weeks ago and flat spin'ed it into the ground, I know now, that will never happen again.

thanx WW

[Ruah]

sweet!!

thanks guys