whats up with the P40's?

[Citabria]

whats up? they were always bad but this new FM they have after they were updated... what gives? p47 turns better.

everyones all kosher with this? any fact finding turn rate nerds validate its suckitude?

combined with a gunsight and guns that are aimed below the nose so every shot is a blind one this is the worst plane set in the game. not to mention you cant get closer than 2 feet from the gunsight chin rest.

/rant

I feel safer flying an il2 than this piece of garbage in the MA as IL2 turns circles around a p40 not to mention hase better zoom capability.

[Widewing]

P-40s are generally slow, with miserable rate of climb. The flaps are basically useless for dogfighting. Yeah, the gun sight is low and takes some adjustment to get used to it.

However, the have very good instantaneous turn and excellent ailerons. Sustained turn is unimpressive due to a lack of power and terrible flaps. Still, I do very well in the P-40N, maintaining a 34 to 1 kill to loss rate over several tours. Like any other aircraft, you identify its strengths and weaknesses and fly to the former and avoid the latter. The N model is an effective tank buster, if you can tolerate the pathetic climb rate when loaded with three bombs.

The P-40C is better than the poorly modeled P-40B it replaced. The P-40E no longer has WEP (which is correct), while the P-40F is the best P-40 above 15k. Down low, the P-40N is the best of the bunch with the best climb rate and acceleration below 10k.

They are what they are... I know you're a good enough pilot to make them work for you.

[Slade]

At first I felt the same about the remolded P-40s.  I really like them now.  The P-40F to me has enough of everything to beat most planes if you fly smart.

I did not know the N was better down low.  I'll have to give it more time. 

[LilMak]

The thing that bugs me most is the tiny gunsight too low in the canopy. Ive had my head in the real thing and the gunsight wasnt nearly that small. Feel it's a little under modeled for a plane that supposedly could out turn/roll a 51. Sure miss the flaps. Made it competitive in the MA. Now my favorite warbird is an AH hangar queen. I miss the old one.

[Widewing]

A few more things relative to the P-40N.

I did a quick turn radius/rate test with 25% fuel and the standard 6 gun load-out.

Clean, the turn radius is 618 feet at 20.3 degrees/sec. For comparison, the Bf 109G-6  has a turn radius of 648 feet at the same 20.3 degrees/sec rate. This means that the P-40N can gain angles if the 109 pilot doesn't start dumping flaps. So, the P-40N needs to get the kill quickly.

Corner speed for the P-40N is 226 mph, and the 109G-6 comes in at 232 mph.

With full flaps, turn radius is around 545 feet at 15 degrees/sec. For comparison, the Bf 109G-6 has a turn radius of 481 feet at 19.5 degrees/sec, which give it a big advantage in a stall fight.

The old P-40E (prior to flight model update) managed 650 feet clean and about 500 feet with full flaps.

The current P-40N is competitive with many fighters in terms of radius and rate, and you can strip another 200 to 300 lbs out by going with one of the 4 gun package options. That will reduce turn radius some and adds about 100 fpm to steady climb rate. Flaps are of little use. The gain in turn radius is more than offset by the big drop in turn rate. Climb rate with the 4 gun/big clip load is 3,120 fpm at 5k with 25% fuel. That's pretty good considering we're talking about a P-40.

[MAINER]

P-40s are generally slow, with miserable rate of climb. The flaps are basically useless for dogfighting. Yeah, the gun sight is low and takes some adjustment to get used to it.

However, the have very good instantaneous turn and excellent ailerons. Sustained turn is unimpressive due to a lack of power and terrible flaps. Still, I do very well in the P-40N, maintaining a 34 to 1 kill to loss rate over several tours. Like any other aircraft, you identify its strengths and weaknesses and fly to the former and avoid the latter. The N model is an effective tank buster, if you can tolerate the pathetic climb rate when loaded with three bombs.

The P-40C is better than the poorly modeled P-40B it replaced. The P-40E no longer has WEP (which is correct), while the P-40F is the best P-40 above 15k. Down low, the P-40N is the best of the bunch with the best climb rate and acceleration below 10k.

They are what they are... I know you're a good enough pilot to make them work for you.

source for the 34-1 kill ratio? I have always read and been told the Hellcat had the highest K/D ratio with 19:1

[mtnman]

source for the 34-1 kill ratio? I have always read and been told the Hellcat had the highest K/D ratio with 19:1

That's his own kill ratio with that plane.  Not the historical record.

[Oldman731]

you can strip another 200 to 300 lbs out by going with one of the 4 gun package options. That will reduce turn radius some and adds about 100 fpm to steady climb rate. Flaps are of little use.

The P-40N, in the configuration described above, with as little ammo and as little fuel as possible, is about the closest you can get to our old P-40E.

While I miss the old P-40E, I think the current versions of the P-40 are more faithful to the real planes.  The US survived with them; it needed better planes to dominate.

- oldman

[SmokinLoon]

Remember that the P40's best time in the war was early on when they have the speed and dive advantage over the Japanese planes, in particular against the Oscar and slow Japanese bombers.  Also, much of the P40's kill/death ratio involved the shooting down of bombers in the early part of the war.  The P40 is a tough bird, it is built like a tank.  But those characteristics made gave it 2 distinct Achilles heels: climb and acceleration.

I suggest for people to study the charts, while they do not show turn radius or acceleration rates, the charts paint a decent picture of their ability.

The F is the heaviest, but faster at all alts on MIL power.
The C climbs the best on MIL power at low alt.
The N is a beast at less than 12k on WEP (speed and climb), and its 3/500lb bomb load is impressive.
The E is a stable platform not really "best" at anything, but it is tried and true.

I REALLY hope Skuzzy gets the numerous P40 skins approved QUICKLY!!!!!!  it has been tooooo long!   

[Shane]

That's his own kill ratio with that plane.  Not the historical record.

guess who shot him down?

 

[Widewing]

guess who shot him down?

 

Indeed, my only P-40N loss was to Shane.

I saw an La-7 very near a friendly field, engaged with 1 or 2 Rooks. I was very low on fuel, and checked E6B. 2 minutes left. I saw one of the Rooks go down. Since I was within easy gliding distance from the field, I headed towards the fight. We maneuvered for a while, mostly in the vertical. I had a snap shot, but little or no damage. Shane went vertical, and I followed, suit. Then, the engine quit... There I was, hanging and Shane didn't miss the opportunity. The Bastage! LOL He earned the kill, running me out of gas and not giving me a decent shot, despite the fact that another Rook was engaging him.

If I hear that Shane is nearby, I head straight for the nearest La-7. I know that I'll get a great fight. The problem is keeping others out. Can't get a decent 1v1 fight without a bunch of green icons converging on the fight. Shane is usually deep in unfriendly territory and often out-numbered. Several times in recent months, I'll be engaged with Shane only to have one or more Rooks pick him. It annoys me, so I'm sure it irritates Shane even more. If I know it's Shane in a fight, I stay out until his fight is resolved. No need to dog-pile...

Shane, over the past year, I think I'm up 3 or 4 to 1, right? Got ya with a P-39Q, P-38L and A-20 that I recall... In fairness, the P-38 kill was a perfect bounce.. He never saw me until too late. The A-20 kill was the result of Shane being low and slow, having just beat an F4U down in the weeds. P-39 kill doesn't register much in my memory, except that I got him with a 37mm on a snapshot. We'll have to go the DA some evening to avoid the pickers. 109G-2 vs La-7 is always a fun match-up...

[W7LPNRICK]

There was a bunch of dingle-berries de-acking a field with P-40's this afternoon. Can you say auger? IMO not a good idea, as they all bit dirt hard.   

[PFactorDave]

I flew a P40N this evening.  For some reason I attracted an unusually large number of HOing Spits, LAs, and a stray HOing P38.  I never realized that the P40N is so feared that everybody feels like they need to HO it like they would a 262...  Did I forget to fire the RATOs or something?

[Karnak]

what I have noticed is that any rare aircraft attracts a crowd.  I think it is a mix of "easy kill, get it!" and "I want that rare scalp!" going on.

[Butcher]

what I have noticed is that any rare aircraft attracts a crowd.  I think it is a mix of "easy kill, get it!" and "I want that rare scalp!" going on.

Its not because its rare, its because of 2 things: A) either its flown by a veteran player who will handle it like a spitfire, or B) a total noob which would be an easy kill.
Generally speaking its around 20% and 80%.

For example If you see a P38G, you think of A) Guppy or B) noob