Author Topic: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!  (Read 2081 times)

Offline DMVIAGRA

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F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« on: April 08, 2012, 06:45:59 PM »


F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s long term operating costs are once again at the forefront of the debate about how much the stealthy swiss army knife will cost. Just yesterday, Frank Kendall, acting undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics (AT&L) told lawmakers that while acquisition costs are coming under control the real issue is going to be the price tag associated with keeping the jets flying over the decades.
 
“We’re doign everything we can to drive down the cost of the Joint Strike Fighter,“said Kendall during his March 29 Senate Armed Services Committee hearing to be confirmed as full-time undersecretary of defense for AT&L.
 
“I do think that the strike fighter is getting under control, we’re attacking the producting costs by putting stong incentives on the contractor to control cost and to get the changes that have to be made cut in quickly. Now we’re focusing on the sustainment costs which are larger actually than the production costs, we’ve made some progress there this year in some areas but we’ve slipped in some areas as well. That’s where we think the greatest potential [for savings] is. [Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter] testified a year ago about getting large fractions of that cost down and I think we can approach that. So I’ve set a goal for us to accomplish that.”

Now Reuters is reporting that the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE) office estimates that it will cost $1.45 trillion over the next 50-plus years to buy and operate the JSF fleet. Wow.
 
Apparently, much of this is due to the cost of inflation over the coming decades:
 

While inflation accounts for more than one-third of the projected F-35 operating costs, military officials and industry executives were quick to point out that it is nearly impossible to predict inflation over the next half-century.
 
They also argue that no other weapons program’s costs have been calculated over such a long period, and that even shorter-term cost projections for other aircraft do not include the cost of modernization programs and upgrades.
 
The new cost estimate reflects the Pentagon’s proposal to postpone orders for 179 planes for five years, a move that U.S. official say will save $15.1 billion through 2017, and should avert costly retrofits if further problems arise during testing of the new fighter, which is only about 20 percent complete.
 
The Pentagon’s newest numbers say that the jets will cost $112.5 million, plus $22 million for the engine, apiece to buy in 2012 dollars (that figure includes the cost of R&D work), according to Reuters. That’s $135 million per plane, plus an additional $26 million for the engines when adjusted for inflation.
 
Here’s Reuters breakdown of that massive number along with several competing estimates about the F-35’s cost — notice how the Pentagon’s official cost psychics (CAPE), the GAO and the F-35 program office all have different predictions for the F-35 price tag:
 

The new estimate, based on calculations made by the Cost Assessment Program Evaluation (CAPE) office, includes operating and maintenance costs of $1.11 trillion, including inflation, and development and procurement costs of $332 billion.
 
The Government Accountability Office last week projected it would cost $397 billion to develop and buy the planes, up from its earlier forecast of $382 billion.
 
The Pentagon office that runs the F-35 program office has a lower estimate for lifetime costs, although it is still around $1 trillion, according to two sources familiar with the estimates. Both industry and government have put a huge emphasis on reducing operating costs and keeping the plane affordable.
 
Remember a couple of years ago when a leaked slide from NAVAIR claimed that the F-35 — a plane originally sold on the premise that it will offer 5th-generation fighter performance with a low price tag — would be far more expensive to operate than the Navy and Marine Corps current crop of fighters?
 
That document claimed the Navy and Marines’F-35C carrier variant and F-35B short Take-off and vertical landing variant JSFs would cost $30,700 per hour to fly versus the $18,900 an hour that the AV-8B Harrier and F/A-18 Hornet cost to fly. Naturally, Lockheed disputed these claims.




Read more: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/03/30/f-35-to-cost-1-45-trillion-over-next-50-years/#ixzz1rUmvzDvy
 DoDBuzz.com

Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 07:27:55 PM »
I can not believe that cost assessment.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Wolfala

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 09:33:41 PM »
Not for nothing, but has anyone ever tried to predict a  systems cost so far into the future?

What's the precedent?


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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 10:15:39 PM »
Waste of metal, I'd spit on it if I could
Reaper in a T-50-2 Scout tank in 10 seconds flat

Offline Silat

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 10:44:34 PM »
Translation:
the military industrial complex is going to make a fortune off this weapons platform. So dont mess it up for the private corps....
+Silat
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Offline Nypsy

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 06:00:30 AM »
I would not be so upset if that plane was not such a piece of junk!

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 06:20:57 AM »
There is a world-class irony in this discussion. We are talking about defense, right? The idea that there is a threat, right? The single greatest threat as manifest from all great nations going back to recorded history is not external enemies, but the enemy within.

America will not be defeated first by an enemy abroad, but from rot and corruption within. Purchasing such junk as the F-35 is the rot and corruption within. We seem to think we can continue to spend a trillion here, and a trillion there on future, as un-yet-earned money. We think the good times will last forever. History shows, it does not. Our total national debt is rapidly approaching $16 trillion. That is larger then our entire national economy. If you factor in the trillion here and trillion there of future promises just like this F-35 our national debt and future obligation is approaching $120 trillion, in our lifetime!!

Let's put this into context. Right now we are borrowing about $1 trillion every year. That means we are spending $1 trillion more then we really have, more 'play now, pay later' mentality. If you are 20-years old now and lived to be 80-years old, we would first cut spending by $1 trillion to bring it into balance...then...we would spend $2 trillion a year for the rest of your lifetime just to breakeven, on top of our operating budget.

That is not perfect math because the Wizards of Liberty Street intend to inflate our way back to health.

The F-35 is beyond criminal. In 20-years we will think treason. I remember reading a story of a bankrupt hockey player who made millions moaning the fact that one night he spent $500 on a bottle of wine. He was almost in tears thinking of how he could use that $500 for legitimate purposes for his family now. He was stunned to think of how stupid he was. When it comes to the F-35 America would be better off getting our fiscal house in order and building a brandnew F4U than bankruptcy and the F-22/35 junk. Rot from within.

Boo

PS History shows that the death of empires is ubber violent. Not a fun future though we write it. We can change it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:23:55 AM by mthrockmor »
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 08:00:48 AM »
mtrockmor is right on.  The only thing I would argue is that the cost of the F4u is beyond reach too.  Hell a paper airplane is beyond reach. 
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Offline BoilerDown

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 04:24:19 PM »
Most F-35s are going to be sold to other countries (our allies), not kept for the USA.  Cut the program, and those other countries will buy from the EU, Russia, or even China instead.  All those operating costs?  That revenue will go to the aircraft industry of those other countries and not the USA.  Cut the F-35 program and you infuse 1.45 trillion into foreign economies instead of our own.
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 05:59:27 PM »
A majority will be flying under the US flag. Only a few other countries are going to fly it and even these are reducing the number of purchases, just as we are. If you consider our foreign policy, foreign aid and various "gifts" we are paying for large portions of their costs anyway. It is much as Egypt owns the largest fleet of M1A1 Abrams outside of the US. Yes, they bought them with the money we gave them in the first place.

Much of this is a shell game and examples of corporate welfare, street lingo is crony capitalism.

Considering that we will bare the vast bulk of this future debt, our allies would be just as happy to buy a ubber modern F-16 or F-15 SE well before they buy some Russian or Chinese junk. Funny, we are already losing sales to the Swedish Grippen, French Rafael and Eurofighter due to much lower acquisition and operating costs. A revamped F-16 or F-15SE owns the future in a responsible way, and could be done in a manner that would not cost the taxpayers of America a penny, unless we pull another Egypt.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline BoilerDown

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 01:54:34 PM »
A majority will be flying under the US flag.

Only 44% will be sold to the US, the other 56% to the US' allies.  44% is not a majority.

Yes, everyone is reducing their orders, but there's no reason to believe they are reducing them out of proportion to the amount the US is reducing them, so the ratio remains the same.

A revamped F-16 or F-15SE owns the future in a responsible way, and could be done in a manner that would not cost the taxpayers of America a penny, unless we pull another Egypt.

Don't have a significant technological advantage over the hypothetical enemy's aircraft.  Australia is buying F-18s while waiting on the F-35 to be finished.  But in a free world economy, if they really want those older models, they can probably get them.  The fact that they are still in line for the F-35 says that they want something better.  If the US doesn't sell it to them, they may have to wait an additional 5-10 years, but eventually they'll get it from the EU, Russia, or China instead.  And then the US will lose its technological superiority and expertise in fighter aircraft, and the EU, Russia, and China will gain it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 02:01:15 PM by BoilerDown »
Boildown

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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 02:24:34 PM »
Quickest numbers I can find are likely suspect but not too far off.

US 2,443 of all models
UK 138
Italy 131
Netherlands 85
Australia 72 (options for more)
Canada 65
Denmark 48
Norway 52
Turkey 116
Israel 100
Singapore 100
Total of 3,350 ordered of which US makes up 72.9%.

We are pushing for many other countries to buy this bird to include Japan, Belgium, Brazil, Finland, Greece, India, Taiwan, South Korea, Spain and UAE. Likely some of these will buy something simply to make America happy. Likely we will lose many sales to the Grippen, Eurofighter or upgraded F-16s, Mig-29s, etc. We will also likely see many orders cut back due to cost overruns.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline -tronski-

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 07:16:11 AM »
A complete waste of money - we should've kept our F-111's and bought the latest version of the F-15E with the money we're wasting on interim F-18F's and the cash we've sunk into the F-35

 Tronsky
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 05:58:55 AM »
Here is more evidence that we are completely off with both the F-22 and the F-35. We are going to borrow over a Trillion from China, etc to buy 2,300+ F-35s and this is our competition...30 Su-30s that are roughly on par with the F-15E!

The F-22/35 program is another form of corporate welfare. And it is helping implode our country.

Boo

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20120411.aspx
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
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Offline ByeBye

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Re: F-35 to cost $1.45 trillion over next 50 years!
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 04:58:13 PM »
1.45 trillion is not too much to pay for the world's greatest fighter aircraft, bar none. The F-35 will remain unchallenged in the sir for at least the next 40 years.