Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch

[The Fugitive]

While I disagree with perking the Storch in any way, I do somewhat agree with the OP that the Storch in fact adds another layer on a certain gameplay problem when it comes to GV: The balance between attack & defense and the resulting consequences of gameplay.
 Now more than ever, an attacker has basically no chance to get away alive, unless the base has been captured. If you spawn in, you are already dead. This massively discourages the use of perked tanks in an offensive situation, while the defender can happily be a concrete sitter in his shiny Tiger 2. This in turn encourage classic "horde tactics", bring friends in planes and flatten the base. There is almost no reason to counter a defending tiger by bringing a perk tank on nyour own. While the defender has a high chance retaining the perks, the attacker has basically none - ot at least the Fi 156 ensures he never can outmaneuver maneuver the defenders or get enough speraration for a "landing".

 But imho this general problem has to be solved on a different level as well, with a more "integrated" solution.

I think it just creates another problem that must e solved to do the same things you use to do i the game. As an example, we had very few ack guns at a field. It was an easy matter to make a few passes and have the ack down. Then HTC came along and added a "crap load" <--- technical number) of ack guns and that just didn't work any more. People solved the problem by timing their runs and going in together. Now 3 guys can make a few passes and all the ack is down, or you can dive in with 30 guys and make one pass 

The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.

If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand. 

[Lusche]

The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.

If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand. 

Yes, people will adapt, but they do adapt in different ways, which may less than optimal or intended by original design. For example, players did very well "adapt" to the changes in strats and the new towns...
Also not every gameplay issue is quantifyable that easily. It's not about any number of kills, it's in this case more about how they are achived, what kind of combat oppotunities are being left. In this case specifically it's not about GV being more or less killed by planes.
It's about giving an incentive to an attacker to spawn his tank to an enemy base to ATTACK, preferably in the same kind of perked GV the defender is using, to create some more intense combat situation. And wirbels do not help against that specific "landing" problem, and neither does killing the Storch's hangar. In the end, the only viable option is tot totally flatten that base with bombs, then overrunning it.

But I also want to see more opportunities for low to med key action. I'd like to see more "balanced" matchups, especially perk tanks being used to counter the enemie's perk tanks.

The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.

[TDeacon]

<snip>
The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.

This is not a global solution.  It requires someone to make new maps, which will not happen.  It also requires elimination of the current maps, which will not happen.  Ideally, a global problem requires a global solution.  The simplest such solution is to perk the Storch.  A good adjunct solution is to put "safe evacuation pads" several thousand yards behind the spawn points. 

MH

[Lusche]

  The simplest such solution is to perk the Storch. 

This is no solution at all.

[TDeacon]

<snip>
The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.

If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand.  

You could use this "reasoning" on any proposed perk situation.  For example, let's remove perks from the 262.  People "will find a way to adapt".  All they have to do is arrange a mission consisting of 300 P51s and converge on the 262 from all directions.  Brilliant...

MH

[PFactorDave]

In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location.  There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill.  The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.

Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily.  Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.

The Storch is a sitting duck for ANY armed aircraft, including such planes as the D3A and the JU87.

A perk is certainly not needed.


Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?

[TDeacon]

This is no solution at all.

Sure it is, even if only a partial one.  Perking reduces use.  

The solution to your "escape" issue requires something more, such as my "safe evacuation pads" idea which you neglected to include in your quote above.  

MH

[TDeacon]

In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location.  There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill.  The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.

Revealing the GVs location is all.  They are an easy kill to any attack plane.  With respect to other GVs, once spotted and marked, it's like trying to box against an opponent with a blindfold on.  The opponent has a huge advantage, as he knows where you are, and you don't know where he is.  

Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily.  Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.

You clearly have little knowledge of the dynamics of Storch use.  Anything is easy to kill if it is used unskillfully.  

Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?

Is there no end to the whines of the attack AC set?  :-)

[Raphael]

[kvuo75]

LOL

[guncrasher]

In my case, I pick a Panzer IV over a Sherman 76mm 90% of the time, because the latter has a perk cost of 1.  Perhaps I am wierd, but that's how my mind works.  Perhaps others are similar.  :-)

MH

dood you can get 4 perks just by resuplying a base with an m3.  upping  a tiger an getting 20 kills got me less perks than that.


semp

[Bino]

 
 -1

 I disagree.  A Kampfgruppe needs to be a combined arms team, and include anti-aircraft defense: Ostwind, Wirbelwind, M-16.  When stationary, a Wirblewind can hit and kill a Storch beyond icon range, and I have the scars to prove it.   

[Butcher]

In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location.  There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill.  The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.

Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily.  Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.

The Storch is a sitting duck for ANY armed aircraft, including such planes as the D3A and the JU87.

A perk is certainly not needed.
Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?

Nope whiners will continue to whine, I have had NO problems with ground vehicles since the storch was added, when attacking an enemy base I make sure a friendly in a fighter is looming near bye, as for the storch - it does not change the balance of ground vehicles.

I can simply shut down my engine and still hear every tank within 5k, so the storch pointing me out only brings the enemy to me to pick off.

[matt]

-1

[The Fugitive]

Yes, people will adapt, but they do adapt in different ways, which may less than optimal or intended by original design. For example, players did very well "adapt" to the changes in strats and the new towns...
Also not every gameplay issue is quantifyable that easily. It's not about any number of kills, it's in this case more about how they are achived, what kind of combat oppotunities are being left. In this case specifically it's not about GV being more or less killed by planes.
It's about giving an incentive to an attacker to spawn his tank to an enemy base to ATTACK, preferably in the same kind of perked GV the defender is using, to create some more intense combat situation. And wirbels do not help against that specific "landing" problem, and neither does killing the Storch's hangar. In the end, the only viable option is tot totally flatten that base with bombs, then overrunning it.

But I also want to see more opportunities for low to med key action. I'd like to see more "balanced" matchups, especially perk tanks being used to counter the enemie's perk tanks.

The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.

They DID adapt to both the strats and the new towns. The strats are basically ignored because they were really only hit as milk runs. I think the idea was to centralize them to make it easier to know where the attack will be so more fights would ensue. The problem was they were there for fights, but for easy points/perks, so they dryed up. The towns were much harded to take down and even so to KNOW it was down. HTC adjusted it and added the flag colors, and the players adapted by bringing more players. More players in a smaller area makes it easier to find combat/fights.

I agree, it would be MUCH better if players played the game more evenly. They never spawn camped in the war, why should we have that in a war game?  I think the Storch was added to maybe bring a bit more of a "ground game" into play, something other than the same old spawn camp. I'd like to see the spawn points either moved farther apart, or protected by a game control. FORCE the players into using tactics and strategies instead of just point and shoot. If your bringing tigers to the battle you better bring support to protect them and resupply them. Much like flying a box or two of B17s to the starts without escort, in most cases you can kiss them things goodbye.

You could use this "reasoning" on any proposed perk situation.  For example, let's remove perks from the 262.  People "will find a way to adapt".  All they have to do is arrange a mission consisting of 300 P51s and converge on the 262 from all directions.  Brilliant...

MH

Thats not how they would adapt, they would all be in 262's, pretty much the reason 262's are perked. I think you are over estimating the use of the storches. If used well yes they can be a pain, but most people are NOT going to use them that way. Of the major tank battles I've seen at the "usual sites" on the different maps since the storches release I have seen very few flying. This last Saturday is the first time I shot one down, and there were only 2 in the area with a half dozen tanks. 30 miles away there was a battle at a spawn that had well over 50 tanks and not a single storch in the air. Should the storches start over powering the tanks ablity to get in and have some battles you could see a change, but I just think it is very un likely that it will become a problem.