Author Topic: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch  (Read 1410 times)

Offline talos

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 05:45:55 AM »
ok, deacon, i really have to stop you here

 If you look up my score you will see that i have little or no storch kills. That is mainly because i don't really go after them reasoning for that is i will dogfight in the dang thing and i know how crazy that little thing really is. I haven't gotten any kills yet but i came close a few times :x :x, also the NOE thing doesn't really work that well against a good GVer. The best thing to is to come in behind the tank or flak shut your engine off and glide in from up above and drop smoke


all in all i don't think that the storch needs to be perked
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Offline waystin2

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2012, 10:46:58 AM »
Nope.  Virtually every plane in the game pawns the Storch.   :aok
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2012, 11:20:48 AM »
Nope.  Virtually every plane in the game pawns the Storch.   :aok

True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?

MH

Offline shdo

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 12:17:43 PM »
As I stated previously (hey; why bother reading the entire thread?) a skilled Storch operator can mark GVs without much risk of being shot down, by such tactics as approaching NOE behind trees, or by marking the location the GV is heading for.  As stated previously, the effect of the Storch is to reveal GV locations, so its lack of combat power is irrelevant. 

i read the whole thread before replying.  notice i am answering your arguments with my own.  Interlocking fields of fire come into play here as the gv your marking may not be the gv shooting you down.

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Most GV battles have one side “on the defensive”.

at least 1/3 to 1/2 will be defensive,  another 1/3 to 1/2 will be offensive and upto 1/3 will be meeting engagements.  the Storch currently has a realistic role in defensive and some meeting engagements very few maps with close vbase locations does it play a role in offensive operations.  tank town would be a meeting engagement that the Storch may have a role in but not on maps where there is air cover involved in the battle. 

As it happens the place the Storch would be the most use is when it can not survive on the field long enough to make a contribution.  This would be during a defense of a base with a combined air/ground and when applicable sea assault.

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Incorrect; it can see you from at least 600 yards away, and more if LOS or movement is involved.  Also, most people don’t up GVs just so they can hide in tress or buildings.  Kind of like watching grass grow…

you can only see them if you have LOS.  if they are behind a tree, in a barn, in a clump of trees and not in your LOS you can not see them in a Storch or a gv or another plane.  I recall a battle where someone had a panther in a barn that had the door facing our base.  Until right on top of them nobody was able to see the panther in question.  In the same battle we had some hiding on ridges in clumps of trees.  They could be seen from some angles but not all of them and they were using M16s, wirbs and M4's to shoot me out the sky.  The Storch should have outlines on the window with captions that say "spray blood here".

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Incorrect; see my comment to (a) above. 
We are concerned with optimal gameplay issues here, not simplistic rules-of-thumb such as whether a vehicle sortie can recover the perk points it cost.  Actually, one rarely recovers perk points during a sortie with a perked item; typically one hopes for a few kills and survival at the end. 

In summary, remember that the point of the OP was to suggest a disincentive to prolifigate Storch use, leaving the bulk of the existing dynamics in place. 

MH


yes we are concerned about game play here.  The Storch is not heavily used as it is with all it's disadvantages that it has.  I find it a fun plane to fly but many don't fly it.  I'm cool with that but just because it has a job to do and can do it does not mean it should be perked.  As to the "rule-of-thumb" argument, it's valid whether you like it or not.  I don't need to gain score or perks when I fly it but if your going to charge me to fly it, it should be capable of paying for itself.

shdo

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2012, 12:20:29 PM »
True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?

MH

I admire your stubbornness.  and that deserves a good  :salute but it is also a bad thing if you get stuck in "I'm right" mode when you arent.

and I'll tell you a little secret about why me and most wont use a storch.  because it does nothing special really.  I can up any plane with bombs and rockets and do a faster recon of an area and I can even kill a gv or two than the storch does.  even on vh bases I'll bring a fighter even if I spend most of the time scouting as I can see most gv's even before I am within icon range.

and I'll tell you another secret.  drop smoke ahead of a gv on a place where you dont want it to go.  most likely it will move in a different direction and that is based on what I hear tankers on the ground do when I fly cover.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 01:36:07 PM »
i read the whole thread before replying.  notice i am answering your arguments with my own.  Interlocking fields of fire come into play here as the gv your marking may not be the gv shooting you down.
OK; you read the thread; I guess it’s hard to keep track of everything someone says.  I was getting frustrated at the way some respondents ignored what had been said previously.  My apologies. 

at least 1/3 to 1/2 will be defensive,  another 1/3 to 1/2 will be offensive and upto 1/3 will be meeting engagements.  the Storch currently has a realistic role in defensive and some meeting engagements very few maps with close vbase locations does it play a role in offensive operations.  tank town would be a meeting engagement that the Storch may have a role in but not on maps where there is air cover involved in the battle. 
My point about “defensive” GV battles was that usually one side or the other will be “defensive” and near a VBase with Storches.  Thus their presence is common, contrary to your implications.  IMHO, from a GV “hide-and-seek” gameplay perspective, it is often undesirable to reveal either side’s GV positions.  Of course, your concept of the ideal GV battle probably differs from mine. 

As it happens the place the Storch would be the most use is when it can not survive on the field long enough to make a contribution.  This would be during a defense of a base with a combined air/ground and when applicable sea assault.
I disagree here.  During base defense against a massive air/ground attack, you don’t really need the spotting a Storch provides, as the environment is target-rich, and the attacking planes will kill your defending GVs fairly quickly anyway, once their tracers reveal their positions.  I know in that situation, 90% of my concern as a defender is being bombed or strafed, and rightfully so. 

Instead, the situation in which the Storch has the greatest negative effect, is the one where there are only a small number of GVs on both sides.  Assuming no attack planes, previously, one could get an interesting “hide-and-seek” situation going.  Now, the Storch finds you immediately, and the chance for ambush is lost.  Remember, that some low ENY GVs don’t even have AAMGs (M3-75mm, early Pz-IV, etc.). 

you can only see them if you have LOS.  if they are behind a tree, in a barn, in a clump of trees and not in your LOS you can not see them in a Storch or a gv or another plane.  I recall a battle where someone had a panther in a barn that had the door facing our base.  Until right on top of them nobody was able to see the panther in question.  In the same battle we had some hiding on ridges in clumps of trees.  They could be seen from some angles but not all of them and they were using M16s, wirbs and M4's to shoot me out the sky.  The Storch should have outlines on the window with captions that say "spray blood here".
LOS in Aces High seems to be fairly generously defined, so that if your Storch is moving, there will be the occasional gap in foliage or trunks, thus allowing the hidden GV icon to appear.  That has been my experience over the course of many flights.  Barns are a partial exception, but if you fly past the end within sighting distance, you can almost always see through the window, thus momentarily revealing the icon.  All it takes is a momentary sighting to reveal that GV.  BTW, I mis-stated the Storch sighting distance at 600 yards stationary in trees; I believe that it is actually set to 1200, with 600 for other planes.  Moving is worse. 

yes we are concerned about game play here.  The Storch is not heavily used as it is with all it's disadvantages that it has.  I find it a fun plane to fly but many don't fly it.  I'm cool with that but just because it has a job to do and can do it does not mean it should be perked.  As to the "rule-of-thumb" argument, it's valid whether you like it or not.  I don't need to gain score or perks when I fly it but if your going to charge me to fly it, it should be capable of paying for itself.
 
You are entitled to your perk-earning preferences, but I disagree that they are relevant to the game play issues being discussed.  I think the real motivation for most objections to perking the Storch derive from the usual “it will make me ineffective” fears which people have.  I think that perking the Storch at 1 point will not have the great negative effect that these people fear; just a minor shift. 

MH

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »
and I'll tell you another secret.  drop smoke ahead of a gv on a place where you dont want it to go.  most likely it will move in a different direction and that is based on what I hear tankers on the ground do when I fly cover.

semp

Remember, this part of the discussion was in response to the claim that Storches would not survive long enough to have much effect.  If you have deterred the GV from carrying out its original movement plan, you have had a very significant effect.  So either he ignores the "advance marking" smoke, thus risking the consequences of smoke marking, or he cancels his original plan and possibly makes his entire mission a waste of time.  

I know that as a frequent GVer, good high ground is priceless.  If the Storch keeps me from going there, I am frequently reduced to walking into a defenders ambush on the flat (they are operating on interior lines, are therefore mostly stationary, and can hear me coming).  

MH
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 01:50:45 PM by TDeacon »

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 02:42:57 PM »
Remember, this part of the discussion was in response to the claim that Storches would not survive long enough to have much effect.  If you have deterred the GV from carrying out its original movement plan, you have had a very significant effect.  So either he ignores the "advance marking" smoke, thus risking the consequences of smoke marking, or he cancels his original plan and possibly makes his entire mission a waste of time.  

I know that as a frequent GVer, good high ground is priceless.  If the Storch keeps me from going there, I am frequently reduced to walking into a defenders ambush on the flat (they are operating on interior lines, are therefore mostly stationary, and can hear me coming).  

MH

but you still wont know which way the gv is going to go.  i was just messing with you on the marking thing knowing you would answer it.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline waystin2

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2012, 06:17:25 PM »
True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?

MH

Perking is done when a plane or vehicle can overly affect gameplay by it's domination of the other aircraft and planes in the game.  Hitech has a complicated formula for figuring this out, please do not ask me to explain it because I cannot.  The Storch has no capability that causes it to overly dominate anything in the game inventory.  Hence, no need to perk.  I understand your thinking, but I rarely tank with out friendly air cover around which causes the Storch to be nothing more than an interesting target to shoot at for myself or a squaddie.  Hardly a game changer.  Fun to fly though!

 :salute

Way
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Constructive suggestion for perking the Storch
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2012, 08:24:55 PM »
Waystin2,

You are refering to the traditional "hard kill" effects of game rides.  The Storch, given its effective recon abilities has a sort of "soft kill" effect on GVs in certain common situations (recall the boxing analogy I gave earlier in the thread).  The 1-point perk proposal would be justified by the latter effects.  

Granted that an organized mission with air cover wouldn't care, but I tend to be a "lone wolf" type who participates in disorganized or solitary missions.  Also, the experience I described in the OP seemed wrong to me.  I doubt they'll perk it, but I had to try.  

MH