F-86 vs MiG-15

[morfiend]

 Milo,

  it appears you've bested me yet again,a couple points that I was mistaken about. The 20mm was an oerlikon not a hispano and the other 20 mm used were M39's built by ford.

 Interestingly the Aussie's used a pair of 30 mm ardens in some versions they built but it seems all or most the cannon armed version can after the Korean conflict.

  Milo I think it was the Mk5 that Canadair installed the 20's in and these were exported. I was positive I'd seen a Canadian saber with 4 cannons in the nose but cant find where I saw that pic.



   

[Squire]

I've read that the mig15 intended purpose was to shoot down long range american bomber, not to dogfight nearly identical fighters

An excellent point.

Fighters were built to shoot down bombers and recon a/c that was their #1 role throughout history with a few exceptions. The MiG-15 was certainly intended to sortie against bombers and I beleive the Soviets had the B-29 in mind when they started working on the design (and none too surprising as they were plenty aware of the plane). That being said since WW1 it was known that a fighter also had to deal with other fighter planes so that has almost always been a factor is the minds of the designers and air forces. The MiG design bureau was certainly not just building a plane to fight the North American F-86 just as the F-86 was not purpose built to fight the MiG-15.  Both were developed in the mid-late 1940s prior to Korea as fighter/interceptors to face any # of targets they might potentially face. In fact I doubt either company was aware of the others designs in 1945 when the designs were being drawn on the drafters benches for the 1st time.

That the MiG-15 ended up being used in fighter sweeps over North Korea in 1950-53 and the F-86 was used as escort and sweep over the same realestate is like most other contests amongst fighters an accident of historical design; much like the Bf 109 vs Spitfire in 1940 or the P-47 vs Fw190 in 1943 or the F-4 vs MiG-21 in 1967 over SEA and the Mid East.

[MiloMorai]

  Milo I think it was the Mk5 that Canadair installed the 20's in and these were exported. I was positive I'd seen a Canadian saber with 4 cannons in the nose but cant find where I saw that pic.
   

Morf, I got out my Milberry book on the CL-13. Under variations it does not list any 20mm but does mention slat deletion > 6-3 leading edge.

I went through the section on the RAF and could find no photo with 20mm.

In some photos it is hard to see the upper gun port.

Now the Vampires had 20mm guns.

I would highly recommend the Milberry book for those interested in the Sabre.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Canadair-Sabre-Larry-Milberry/dp/0969070373

[Ack-Ack]

I did not know we exported the Sabre to Yugoslavia in the 1950's.  Interesting little tidbit I found while tracing back the history of the Sabre Mk 4s the RAF operated.

ack-ack

[morfiend]

Morf, I got out my Milberry book on the CL-13. Under variations it does not list any 20mm but does mention slat deletion > 6-3 leading edge.

I went through the section on the RAF and could find no photo with 20mm.

In some photos it is hard to see the upper gun port.

Now the Vampires had 20mm guns.

I would highly recommend the Milberry book for those interested in the Sabre.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Canadair-Sabre-Larry-Milberry/dp/0969070373

  Well I'll take your word on it as I know by now your seldom wrong and I was using an internet source so I'll watch my P's and Q's....

  Vampire did you say,always a fav of mine just looked so cool!




   

[Rino]

I don't think so. The last Sabre, the Mk 6, still had 5 .50" hmgs.

    Some Canadair Sabres had 4 20mm and CAC or Avon Aussie Sabres had 2 30mm Aden cannon.

CAC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Sabre

CL-13B <F-86E>
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/f86e.html

[MiloMorai]

Never go to that warbirds site again.

The Sabre 5 used an Orenda 10 engine and the Sabre 6 used an Orenda 14 engine. So, if they got the engines wrong one must suspect everything else it says is wrong, and there is.

[Pongo]

I think that we have worked out that no canadian sabres were armed with 20mm,
but this would be funny.
"The 20mm was an oerlikon not a hispano"

Could you imagine an MGFF on a Canadiar Mk6...lol
Why do I keep blowing up as soon as I press the trigger?

[Arlo]

So was the US Navy's version of the F-86, the FJ-2 "Fury".   

Alas ... it flew between wars.