missing a vertical stabilizer

[earl1937]

This evaluation is incorrect. Planes would not turn better with out a V stab.

This also is not necessarily true. Just because you lost a V stab, it does not mean the aircraft is not stable in the yaw axis.

The fuselage can also provide a degree of stability depending on is shape and size.

And finally , rudders and V stabs do not normally make you turn, LIFT generated by the wing is what makes you turn.

HiTech

Appreciate your comments Hi Tech, but: #1- a rudder is on a aircraft to control "Yaw" about the vertical axis! #2- The rudder is on the aircraft to overcome the adverse "yaw" created by the down aileron in a turn. Next time you are in a real aircraft, start a left or right turn, with out touching the rudder and you will notice the nose of the aircraft moves in the opposite direction that you want to turn, before lift of the wing overcomes it and it starts turning in the direction you want the aircraft to go in. The vertical stabilizer is designed by the aircraft designers to "hold" the aircraft in a straight line when flying at the design Cruise speed. Example, the P-51B and D models, if you are standing behind the aircraft looking forward, the leading edge of the vertical stab is offset to the left, 1.26 degrees. The reason for this is to overcome torque and "P" factor in straight and level flight,at the design cruise speed. If you exceed the design Cruise speed, which if I recall correctly is 289MPH, IAS, it will turn to the right without any input from the pilot. If you slow to less than 289MPH, IAS, it will turn to the left without any input from the pilot. But, that is why we have trim-tabs, so that you may trim the aircraft to fly "hands off" at any speed, and to relieve control pressure! The only thing the fuselage does for an aircraft is carry the pilot, sometimes fuel, the engine and etc. The Fuselage does nothing to aid flight, as it only produces DRAG! Check the shape of many supersonic aircraft and see how they gradually get to the famous "coke" bottle shape. By the way, these are not my flight princpals, these were established more than 70 or 80 years ago by people who were a lot smarter than I am. I Was a professonal pilot from 1953 to 1996, with 22,924 hours total time, and I am still learning today!!!!

[Babalonian]

My 2-cents:  In AH, and the luxury of combat trim, I usually get lazy and let it handle the chore for me.  However, I *could* turn "better" (tighter) if I used trim in addition to control input/authority.  Now, if in combat and knife fighting and I loose half my horizontal (either control surface or completely), chances are I'm suddenly very interested/aware and paying responcive attention to my trim now so as to use it to compensate for my lost control authority.

I' d bet my lunch I am NOT the only pilot, by FAR, to follow this relatively lazy/compfortable habit of mostly using CT (or no trim adjustment) in 90% of my maneuvers until the situation demands a change in such thinking from "an optional effort for a slight advantage" to "keeping my arse alive/in the fight".

This would give the apearance that a plane is turning better than it should while missing half its controlling surface, but really it isn't - it's that we weren't pushing it to the 100% ultimate max before-hand (with max trim in addition to max control input) that I think you're missing in your observation.

[FLS]

Appreciate your comments Hi Tech, but: #1- a rudder is on a aircraft to control "Yaw" about the vertical axis! #2- The rudder is on the aircraft to overcome the adverse "yaw" created by the down aileron in a turn. Next time you are in a real aircraft, start a left or right turn, with out touching the rudder and you will notice the nose of the aircraft moves in the opposite direction that you want to turn, before lift of the wing overcomes it and it starts turning in the direction you want the aircraft to go in. The vertical stabilizer is designed by the aircraft designers to "hold" the aircraft in a straight line when flying at the design Cruise speed. Example, the P-51B and D models, if you are standing behind the aircraft looking forward, the leading edge of the vertical stab is offset to the left, 1.26 degrees. The reason for this is to overcome torque and "P" factor in straight and level flight,at the design cruise speed. If you exceed the design Cruise speed, which if I recall correctly is 289MPH, IAS, it will turn to the right without any input from the pilot. If you slow to less than 289MPH, IAS, it will turn to the left without any input from the pilot. But, that is why we have trim-tabs, so that you may trim the aircraft to fly "hands off" at any speed, and to relieve control pressure! The only thing the fuselage does for an aircraft is carry the pilot, sometimes fuel, the engine and etc. The Fuselage does nothing to aid flight, as it only produces DRAG! Check the shape of many supersonic aircraft and see how they gradually get to the famous "coke" bottle shape. By the way, these are not my flight princpals, these were established more than 70 or 80 years ago by people who were a lot smarter than I am. I Was a professonal pilot from 1953 to 1996, with 22,924 hours total time, and I am still learning today!!!!

Earl Hitech flies an aerobatic RV8 which he's modeled and included in the Training arena. He also wrote the code for all the forces acting on an aircraft which is included in the flight model in Aces High. I think he's pretty clear on the basics.

I'm sure you know that a wing can be stable by itself without a rudder. Adding a fuselage generally makes the wing unstable but the shape and location of the fuselage can help to stabilize the aircraft as Hitech stated. The fuselage can also be a lifting body as well as a container for the pilot, cargo, or something to attach the empennage to.

[FLS]

My 2-cents:  In AH, and the luxury of combat trim, I usually get lazy and let it handle the chore for me.  However, I *could* turn "better" (tighter) if I used trim in addition to control input/authority.  Now, if in combat and knife fighting and I loose half my horizontal (either control surface or completely), chances are I'm suddenly very interested/aware and paying responcive attention to my trim now so as to use it to compensate for my lost control authority.

This is completely false and has been debunked many times. Trim does not help you turn tighter. Trim does not add elevator deflection. The elevator already lets you set an AOA that stalls you even if half of it is missing. Given that you can already put in more elevator than you can use I can only wonder why people think that adding trim to the proper elevator deflection will help.

[earl1937]

Earl Hitech flies an aerobatic RV8 which he's modeled and included in the Training arena. He also wrote the code for all the forces acting on an aircraft which is included in the flight model in Aces High. I think he's pretty clear on the basics.

I'm sure you know that a wing can be stable by itself without a rudder. Adding a fuselage generally makes the wing unstable but the shape and location of the fuselage can help to stabilize the aircraft as Hitech stated. The fuselage can also be a lifting body as well as a container for the pilot, cargo, or something to attach the empennage to.

Not trying to argue the point, but there has been 2 commercial airliner accidents which should settle it once and for all. The Japanese 747 over Japan a few years ago, and a Airbus 300 over long Island, both lost their vertical stabilizers and crashed within minutes! No conventional built aircraft with a wing, CANNOT fly with out a vertical stabilizer. Just remember, there are some "young" minds reading what you guys post in the forum, so make sure you are accurate about something before you post it!! Now a "Flying Wing", such as the Stealth bomber is a all together different flight control system to maintain flight.

[colmbo]

No conventional built aircraft with a wing, CANNOT fly with out a vertical stabilizer. Just remember, there are some "young" minds reading what you guys post in the forum, so make sure you are accurate about something before you post it!! Now a "Flying Wing", such as the Stealth bomber is a all together different flight control system to maintain flight.

Being accurate is important.

This B-52 landed without the vertical stab or rudder.  There was at least one B-17 that made it home to England without a vertical stab or rudder.  While it will fly like crap and you will have to be very careful in your control inputs it is possible to fly without a vertical stab on some aircraft.

[colmbo]

As to fuselage side area providing stability.  Check out a lot of float planes, you'll notice they'll have some stub vertical fins added to the tail, or perhaps a ventral fin added.  This is done because of the added side area of the floats forward of the CG.

Directional stability was greater on the B/C model Mustang because of the turtle deck.

[Tank-Ace]

I've wondered why one would not be able to use roll to keep the nose pointed in a general direction. I am not a real pilot, just brilliant in cartoon but as the nose begins to yaw could you not roll the wings, pull the nose up slightly and get it back in access? This seems logical though certainly not what happens in-game. I am presuming game is correct though I'm always surprised to lose that ability when the rudder disappears.

thoughts?

Boo

I've managed to fly a plane missing the V-stab back to base...... but I crashed it on landing.

[FLS]

Earl I think you are making a different point than Hitech.  Hitech's point that it's not always true is another way of saying that it's usually true. He didn't say that commercial airliners will generally fly without a vertical stabilizer. I believe we all agree with that.

Since the addition of the fuselage to a stable wing is the source of instability it follows that the shape of the fuselage and the location of the wing and CG will affect the stability with or without a tail. Granted a tail is generally desirable.

As to flying wings they don't require a radically different control system. If you take a swept wing and a swept tail plane sans fuselage, you can stick the tail planes on the ends of the wing and use your ailerons on the wing and elevators on the wingtips since the swept wing puts the elevators far enough behind the CG. You'll want the wing tips twisted enough to avoid tip stalls and air brakes without a pitch moment but you won't need a computer for stable flight.

Colmbo's picture reminds me that a few WW2 aircraft landed with some pretty incredible damage.

[ap1102]

earl is 78 years young. Hes flown p51's as well as a lot of bombers. he knows his stuff and Im gonna go with what he sez.
 rhino

[Noir]

should I make another thread about the HORIZONTAL stab? 

[MachFly]

post deleted

[FLS]

earl is 78 years young. Hes flown p51's as well as a lot of bombers. he knows his stuff and Im gonna go with what he sez.
 rhino

I'm sure Earl knows a lot that I don't know but old people don't know everything, only young people who lack experience know everything. 

One of the bigger difficulties with losing the tail in an airliner is that the pilot had no way of knowing the tail is gone in the accidents Earl mentioned. There is the obvious control issue but you can get in an unrecoverable attitude before you figure out what the actual problem is.

[hawkeye61]

I think as Earl stated it'd be extremely difficult, more likely impossible, to fly a conventional airplane without a vertical stab.

Yes, the fuselage can have some addition of directional stability, but in most cases it is not much - not enough to affect stable flight (or else, why have a v-stab and rudder in the first place?).

The B-52 in the photo has something left of the vertical stab - I guess it is enough to provide some directional stability. Since there is no photo of the B-17 it's difficult to see what "without a vertical stab or rudder" actually translates to. Also, both of those airplanes are very large and designed to be more stable (unlike a fighter) and also have multiple engines out on the wings. Differential thrust can be used to help maintain directional control on those aircraft. In a small fighter, where you have a single, high-power motor swinging a big, honking prop around the nose of your airplane, you pretty much need a v-stab/rudder to stop your plane from flipping over or twisting sideways.

Sorry to continue the tangental discussion. Just my (pilot) thoughts - not an Aero guy either.

[FLS]

The swept wings on the B-52 likely give it more yaw stability then the remains of that tail. As you know a tail provides stability by creating lift and there doesn't seem to be enough span for the speed. Makes you wonder why the gear is down.