French wisdom (caught caught)

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Insults start where the brain stops.

Repression begins when education fails.


Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini could happen because the honest citizens started to say "Ban this or that".

In the other hand, WW2 happened because France/England/Usa where too tolerant letting Hitler go on, thinking :"he will calm down".

As far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised by both reactions, but I can't judge them. I still have a lot of fun with AH, and more than ever I should say. Every time I log on, and I mean every time, I have a blast.

GVs, CVs, rain, night, perks... HTC is offering me more and more inovative and various ways to play AH at each new patch.

I can simply say WOW, and nothing comes close of "making my day miserable". I confident that I will keep enjoying AH for long. baning/not banning debate, sure makes me slightly unconfortable, but both "sides" have valuable arguments.

The heck with it, I go fly and have fun  

[Westy]

Repression begins when education fails.

 Frenchy, this isn't school and there is a minimum of social decorumn expected when online.
 Some folks draw that line down low, some hold it up high. I'm not being mean or spiteful but you and Zigrat seem to draw no line.

 Sorry both of you lost two friends from the game over these past couple of days, but these two weren't friends to most folks here, let alone the proprietors.

  -Westy

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Westy, comming from an another country than USA, I noticed this answer already. I strongly belive that education is not  solely the responsability of the school.

Education is everywhere, school, HOME, friends, familly, comunauties.

As fly intructors there is the saying:

Whenever we talk about a pilot who was killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That is judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose"
Anon

All I mean, and it's not directed at any1 in particular, is that when someone gets banned from a comunauty, it's easy to point fingers. As far as see it, when someone get's banned, it's a failure of the entire comunauty.
But this is my personal point of view, and I don't bash anyone, let that be clear. Whenever I was in the French Air Force or right now as a flight instructor, I never let people down even when they deserved it.

I got kids who came in the comandoes, they were total prettythang and in no way fit for comando type team work. I could always find a way to "work with him" to make him go somewhere, even when the first time I met him, he tried to strangle me.

As a flight instructor, same. I have been assigned a girl, 70+ flight hours, still failing a check ride for private pilot. All her previous 8 flight instructor came to me saying :"don't waste your time with her". After 2h of ground and 3 flights, she passed.

I don't try to say that I'm god or a kind of psy, but when you take on yourself, you can often find a way to make people being "fit to the comunauty standards". Pointing fingers, replying by insults, ignoring, laughing, baning is "when the education stops".

I hope my english makes sense  

(as nothing to do with Towd being "my friend", could have been Nath only, same concept).

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 04-05-2001).]

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Westy, comming from an another country than USA, I noticed this answer already. I strongly belive that education is not  solely the responsability of the school.

Education is everywhere, school, HOME, friends, familly, comunauties.

As fly intructors there is the saying:

Whenever we talk about a pilot who was killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That is judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose"
Anon

Frenchy,

I agree with you on this second post 100%. Preach on Brother! <S>

Mav

[BBGunn]

One day a French Lt was ordered to go down to a small town and destroy it because the General was full of rage at the villagers.  He thought they had collaborated with the enemy but had little evidence.  The Lt thought a minute and said-'General-It is true I am a Lt in this army and it is true that I am a Frenchman but first I am a human being and I will not go down and destroy other peoples whole lives on the basis of a rumor and because you are so angry.'    

[StSanta]

Personally I think the abrasive side of Nath's personality has improved much lately, and I know others would agree.

His frustration had, for sure, something to do with being everyones favourite target on this bb (with or without reason, up to the casual reader). He'd mentioned it yesterday.

How we twist it, a couple of facts are very clear:

a) he's one of the best sticks in Aces High
b) he's a good wingman and will try to clear you, even though he has a tendency to be too aggresive and "overstay"
c) the behaviour some so much dislike has improved lately
4) Some forms of behaviour are unacceptable to the community, regardless of 1, 2 and 3.
5) HTC are free to take whatever precautions they feel are needed to protect their product.

So far I haven't seen a film or screenshots about the incidents, so I cannot judge whether Nath's behaviour can be cataloged under 4). If I get a film, rest assured I'll study the text buffer meticulously and pass objective judgement.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Maverick]

StSanta,

Not to jump on you or anything, but I think the judgement has already been delivered. I am not sure your opinion, like ours, is going to be of any material impact on it. Please don't get yourself in hot water over this buddy. Dragging a controversy on has already been noted to cause negative actions.

Mav

[StSanta]

He's a squaddie. I don't leave squaddies out to hang unless they've erred terribly, and i don't leave um out to hang before I know what has happened.

Basically, I'm am remaining civil. I am quite certain that HT did what he did because he felt it was a necessity to protect his product.

However, how can I pass any judgement (and seeing the threads, everyone is) unless I know more about what happened?

I doubt whatever my opinion is it will change anything but I *am* the Staffelkapitän, and I've just lost one of the best pilots in the game. It's a tight little squad and you get to know people better and they accept your faults and you accept theirs.

So what a member (or particularly a CO) does, reflects on the squad in its entirety. That's the second reason I just want to watch the film and form an opinion. I might not post it at all.

I appreciate your advice Mav and think you have a point. I just have to strike a balance somehow.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Saintaw]

Frenchy, I need you to come over here & speak to my Banker  

have to agree with Santa on the fact that Nath was becomming "nice"(-er). And was quite positively surprised by him lately.

Saw
[Mass]

[Westy]

 Frenchy, your English is far better than my French is. I understand exactly what you're saying. But you're making this all all too ethereal and

 HTC provides the hardware arena and a constantly devloeping package for hundreds of people to use for entertainment purposes.

 It seems to me that you,  many of you who think what TOWD and Nath brought on themselves, are the fanatical sport nut types. The people who over look the "star" players abusive treatement of game officials or even frachise owners. I'm sure you would say that spitting on a refereree would be warrant because the guy was the best player on the team, or laugh at thier frothing at the mouth as they scream obsenities and threats from inch away from a referee's nose, all for a a bad call.

 You show support for this type of behavior by this type of post as well as those by Zigrat, StSanta and Ram.

 This isn't school. It's not day care either. Nor is it where people come to learn the great mysteries of life.  Learn life's lessons in the real world. Not in a 'virtual' online environment at someone elses expense.
 Just because someone can put thier pants on right and thier shirt on without it being inside-out and backwards doesn't qualify them as equipped to go outside and play with the other kids. Especially when it's apparant to a large number of observers and participants here that they both have a myriad of social interaction problems.

  -Westy

[Lephturn]

StSanta,

Just a suggestion.  Don't "judge" what HT did based solely on what happened the other night.  Both guys that got banned had a long history of causing problems.  All your seeing here is the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

The recent exchanges we witnessed were only the last in a long line of unacceptable bahaviour.  Both of these guys had plenty of warnings, and plenty of opportunities to change their behaviour.  They both made a CHOICE to continue with behaviour they KNEW would not be tolerated.  They are gone because they either wanted to get booted, or they had yet to learn that there are consequences to their actions.  In either case, the ball was in their court, and they alone are responsible for the result.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Westy, I understand you, and I agree with you. I never said that it was ok to allow cetain behavior because the guys is good, no way.

I say that anyone can be educated when persons trigger the "proper switch", and it's usually very demanding and nerve breacking, but it can be done. Anything else is a failure and nobody can praise himself about it.

[Toad]

Frenchy,

I agree with you with respect to the "we all share a bit of the responsibility" idea.

Perhaps we all should be jumping on folks that get out of line in the MA. You have to realize that with some individuals, however, that would be like throwing gasoline on a fire. It would only make them worse.

Both of these guys are computer savvy enough to get a new ISP and/or credit card and get back in the game under a new name/persona tomorrow if they so desire.

The question is will they have learned anything from their experiences. I'm sure they'd be quite welcome if they have.

[Yeager]

StSanta,

You are partly to blame for this are you not?
You should have reeled the kid in a long time ago or booted him out of your fine squad.  Barring any other actions you got what he deserved as well as he did.  For what its worth, Nath has only gotten worse as of late.

Its too bad, isnt it.

Im with HTC, hell I think Ill restart my account this evening.  Things are looking up with this community (its only been a week but hey!  I like the direction this is headed)

I want to be able to *salute* a great guy after a great fight and get a *Salute* back instead of being told to "Ef off" by some punk dweeb.

Im sorry, but if cleaning the house means we lose some old unhappy furniture it just makes room for better happier furniture.

<S>

Yeager

[Jigster]

I have yet to figure out how to express my feelings on this issue without marooning myself from this community.

To many factors involved. Some involves stereotyping by the community after the fact.

This episode was very poorly timed by Nath, I agree. But I still stick by that the end result was not justified due to an error in both Nath's and HiTech's judgement initially.

HT found one heck of a poster child for his "I take no crap" cleanup campaign. Perhaps that was why the situation was allowed to continue up to an ultimatum rather then muting the moment it prevented HiTech from continuing his Q&A.

I am just worried about the attention reaction negative criticism has gotten lately. There seems to be some obligation to respond to it at most costs...when it should be ignored in light of critism that holds some concrete elements. And yet to those criticisms and suggestions grounded in fact, positive or otherwise, rarely even get a response as of late. That alone seems to welcome garbage, because they only way to get a response is to contradict the status quo in negative ways.