109K-4 Convergence

[Scotch]

Mine was always 200. I found that at anything above 300, the chances of the round shooting over the target in close, sometimes unexpected or quick position sacrificial, shots were greater than any potential gain in a long shot. For long range shots (450+) it was really a matter of getting the feel and understanding your rounds trajectory at 200. That and getting lucky by taking the chance and pulling the trigger in the first place. I had the most confidence in my shots when I was flying lots of hours (2009). I've had too many extended breaks since then. Basically ignore all the math. choose a convergence somewhere between 2-300 and just practice lots. 

[Babalonian]

I use 425 these days for motor canon 30mm, I think 325-375 on the 110...  425 chucks them pretty wildly high imediatley infront of you, but then ~175 on to 400 it floats pretty flat right above the piper, crosing through it at 425 and then floating under it out to ~525 before dropping like a spud.

[morfiend]

I use 425 these days for motor canon 30mm, I think 325-375 on the 110...  425 chucks them pretty wildly high imediatley infront of you, but then ~175 on to 400 it floats pretty flat right above the piper, crosing through it at 425 and then floating under it out to ~525 before dropping like a spud.

 Babs,

  This isnt quite right,at 425 conv anything less than that distance the round will be low,check Bustr's tables,the round only rises to the pipper at conv distance,it doesnt fly above and drop down into the pipper like shooting in RL. If this convergence range works for you great but your discription of the flight path of the bullet is not right.

  You can easily check this with the dot target,set to 200 and see where your rounds land,I'm betting they will be slightly low until you push the target out to conv. distance and then drop off once past the conv. distance.




   

[BillyD]

200 for the tater. Remember the goal of succesful tatoring is setting up a close range snap shot. Shot set up is KEY!

[Agent360]

There ya go fellas.

Set it at 200.....every good k4 driver I know has it set at 200.

bustr is absolutely correct.

But really its not the conv that is important. The 30mm round drops soooo much and even more when fired with G forces that it becomes the art of "deflection" shooting that is the most important.

You have to construct an intersection of flight path that allows your guns to have enough lead WITHOUT G forces....to unload and fire....

IF you try for tracking shots like with 50cal you will NEVER hit anything.

<<snip>>
Question to ponder: Why does the real world MK108 drop from 0 elevation in negative numbers as tested locked into the engine hollow shaft but, our game numbers  from a level engine go from a negative up to a postive then back to a negative? The reason the 50 yard drop numbers are different
Your real problem is the crap shoot randomised dispersion pattern past 100 yards in the game. Whatever game world angle(convergence) you tip your MK108 barrel up to, the dispersion stays the same. You just have a kinda sorta level but ever expanding shotgun pattern cone out to 400 yards. Use 200 as your convergence and it just about evens out the cone all the way to 400. It's between you and Hitech if you think his 24 sided randomiser dice is loaded.

[BillyD]

Man I miss flying the virtual K4. 

Mean plane, especially fighting those that fly it right.

strapped in........ fighting people to the hilt of its capabilities and beyond....exciting stuff. 

[bustr]

This whole conversation is why I wish Hitech would just present motor mounted cannon correctly. Zeroed into the line of the airscrew shaft with NO convergence adjustment. Then your arguments would be about timing related to your reticle elevation and offset. Not my sweet spot fractions of a degree is better than your sweet spot fractions of a degree.

At least then you guys would be nennering each other over your super secret dead eye dork special tater gunsights.

You guys do know the MK108 barrel was only 23 inches. It just barley touched the rear of the hollow airscrew shaft tube at the back of the DB605 engine. It needed a ridgid adapter to lock it solid with the engine so there was no chance of a round jamming the hollow airscrew shaft or bouncing off the shaft's wall making it fly off god knows where on exit of the shaft. That hollow shaft was 7ft long and the high explosive round had to clear it clean to be of any use hitting a target.

A problem with bouncing around in the tube is it could slow the spin, engage the self destruct or the fuse. The spin kept the self destruct part of the fuse from engaging untill about 1000 meters. Or if it's the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse you could get a predetonation. I know, we are using some strange mix of TypeI M-Gesch and TypeN M-Gesch day tracer rounds which accounts for the tracer every third tater and the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse with no self destruct. By the time of the K4 the ZZ 1589 B fuse with self destruct was standard. Don't want to kill your own citizens or get a possible pre-det half way down the engine tube.

Whether you set your MK108 conv anywhere 150 up to 650, when you test auto engine leveled at 290ta offline. Your aimpoint is from the reticle center to 10Mil below it when you shoot between 100-400. Even if you allow the K4 offline to come up to full cruise at 345ta which pitches the nose down. It still shoots the same pattern. Everything else is your aim timing and your Internet connection versus those random dispersion patterns I documented while you fly in the game.

Like the muppets said, out fly them so you can shoot em really close.

Still wish Hitech would lock the hub cannon in place.......mumble, grumble, brain farts here, pours coffe in the cat water bowel and drinks the cats milk, yeech, blech, phooy...sorry kitty.....rassin frassin...oops...wify wants me to pick up a cae of cat food.....

[ink]

This whole conversation is why I wish Hitech would just present motor mounted cannon correctly. Zeroed into the line of the airscrew shaft with NO convergence adjustment. Then your arguments would be about timing related to your reticle elevation and offset. Not my sweet spot fractions of a degree is better than your sweet spot fractions of a degree.

At least then you guys would be nennering each other over your super secret dead eye dork special tater gunsights.

You guys do know the MK108 barrel was only 23 inches. It just barley touched the rear of the hollow airscrew shaft tube at the back of the DB605 engine. It needed a ridgid adapter to lock it solid with the engine so there was no chance of a round jamming the hollow airscrew shaft or bouncing off the shaft's wall making it fly off god knows where on exit of the shaft. That hollow shaft was 7ft long and the high explosive round had to clear it clean to be of any use hitting a target.

A problem with bouncing around in the tube is it could slow the spin, engage the self destruct or the fuse. The spin kept the self destruct part of the fuse from engaging untill about 1000 meters. Or if it's the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse you could get a predetonation. I know, we are using some strange mix of TypeI M-Gesch and TypeN M-Gesch day tracer rounds which accounts for the tracer every third tater and the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse with no self destruct. By the time of the K4 the ZZ 1589 B fuse with self destruct was standard. Don't want to kill your own citizens or get a possible pre-det half way down the engine tube.

Whether you set your MK108 conv anywhere 150 up to 650, when you test auto engine leveled at 290ta offline. Your aimpoint is from the reticle center to 10Mil below it when you shoot between 100-400. Even if you allow the K4 offline to come up to full cruise at 345ta which pitches the nose down. It still shoots the same pattern. Everything else is your aim timing and your Internet connection versus those random dispersion patterns I documented while you fly in the game.

Like the muppets said, out fly them so you can shoot em really close.

Still wish Hitech would lock the hub cannon in place.......mumble, grumble, brain farts here, pours coffe in the cat water bowel and drinks the cats milk, yeech, blech, phooy...sorry kitty.....rassin frassin...oops...wify wants me to pick up a cae of cat food.....

internet connection as far as I know...has zero to do with hitting.....at least that is what I have been lead to believe.

[BillyD]

There is no mystique to the guns convergence. Again its all in the set up. Wow whats that...well it can happen many ways. I loved a "turn early and within your oponent, unload G, wait for him to cross in front at near collision distance and fire early. Laugh as your taters roll thru his cockpit." Thats a classic set up.

Let me put it another way....Sunsfan taught me to imagine the tater draws a straight line infront of your aircraft. Kind of like a stick or pole extending forth into the sky.

 You want to keep it in a straight line and have the other aircraft touch your stick or touch the aircraft with your stick while it is very very straight. VERY VERY STRAIGHT. Bent stick does not get the job done.

So to do this you have to UNLOAD your Gs.

The other thing is ( call me crazy) you have to fire early. Yes you have a snapshot to fire so get the taters out early. The most you'll waste is 2 or 3 to get that one pounding the strike zone.


So no Hitech is not rigging the connection again...its just you have to fight to the Tater's strength.

[morfiend]

There is no mystique to the guns convergence. Again its all in the set up. Wow whats that...well it can happen many ways. I loved a "turn early and within your oponent, unload G, wait for him to cross in front at near collision distance and fire early. Laugh as your taters roll thru his cockpit." Thats a classic set up.

Let me put it another way....Sunsfan taught me to imagine the tater draws a straight line infront of your aircraft. Kind of like a stick or pole extending forth into the sky.

 You want to keep it in a straight line and have the other aircraft touch your stick or touch the aircraft with your stick while it is very very straight. VERY VERY STRAIGHT. Bent stick does not get the job done.

So to do this you have to UNLOAD your Gs.

The other thing is ( call me crazy) you have to fire early. Yes you have a snapshot to fire so get the taters out early. The most you'll waste is 2 or 3 to get that one pounding the strike zone.


So no Hitech is not rigging the connection again...its just you have to fight to the Tater's strength.

  Some good advice here guys. I wont call you crazy at all,better to miss a round or 2 infront of the enemy and have him fly into your bullets than it is to miss all the round "behind" the enemy!
    Also setting up the shot so you can "unload" the A/C is very important with a low muzzle velocity gun.


   

 PS: Billy, worm said to say hey to ya!

[BillyD]

  Some good advice here guys. I wont call you crazy at all,better to miss a round or 2 infront of the enemy and have him fly into your bullets than it is to miss all the round "behind" the enemy!
    Also setting up the shot so you can "unload" the A/C is very important with a low muzzle velocity gun.


   

 PS: Billy, worm said to say hey to ya!

I learned the hard way and would get alot of 12.7mm strikes.Always a problem...some days I'd be on, others all little sprites.

Anywhoo its a cerebral gun. The Art of the Dynamic Tater. Think of intersections and angles to get you G free and close and most likely you will not miss.

One last note, I realize my above post is loaded with beavis and butthead childish innuendo but the message rings true. I was imparted this knowledge by the best tater launchers in the business for 3 six packs of skunked pabst blue ribbon and a water pipe I had no use for. Take it for what it's worth  and keep lauching dem Taterz KEKEEKEKEKEKEKEK

[icepac]

I spent a lot of time using the .target command and have convergence anywhere from 100 to 650 depending on the plane.

I'm more concerned with the vertical than horizontal.

If convergence is set too close on a wing mounted gun, it's entirely possible you won't be able to tickle a plane at d900 to make him turn instead of run because the rounds are crossing 700 meteres behind him.

In a 110g, I set convergence very long as well as any other plane with only cowl mounted guns and then adjust the head position for the sake of the sight.

[LCADolby]

Get up close and personal with the bandit! 

275 yards
Whites of thier eyes

 

[bustr]

Longtime ago Platano taught me to fly the K4.

Some of the muppets will remember Plat. He and I also flew JUggs in the 56th with YUCCA when Nomde was the CO. Plat and YUCCA flew JUggs in the bushes like we fly spit16 today. Platano told me to only shoot with the tater. And only tap one shot at a time. Eventualy I would get to where all it took was one shot. The 13mm on the hood will always mislead you unless you are using only It.

200 and closer the tater convergence dosen't matter because your aimpoint is withing the 10Mil below and up to the gundight center mark. Lead timing does unless you are dead 6. Past 200 the dispersion as much as the lead timing becomes a problem.

You can see all this offline if you cut across the drone circle and try to shoot drones as they pass 90 degrees across your path. After about 10 minutes in the drone circle you should be able to hit fighters in a tracking shot out to 400 with a single tater tap. Set your convergence 150 then 650 and it will all turn out the same. 200 evens the dispersion pattern out to 400. But then that wil take you a few hours offline of shooting at the offline target every 50 yards to 400 at all the convergences and graphing them.

The reason I say with this plane the convergence dosen't matter is for One: The HUB cannon is setup in a fantasy manner so all of you have learned to shoot at what ever fantasy raised engine tube angle you hit with now. You are arguing Chevy versus Ford V8's for quarter miles and beers. And for Two: If it was locked in place like the real cannon was your whole discussion would be in another direction.

In the real K4 the Revi gunsight was set so it's Line of Sight intersected at the estimated point of impact with the tater fired from a leveled engine center line to (-12ft) at 437 yards with a dispersion of 30 feet. Looks like you can fly a fighter through a space like that and it would never know it was being shot at.

Your convergence dosen't matter with the tater. How close you are when you shoot does. 

[bustr]

Here just for grins and giggels....

K4 real world tater numbers based on cannon locked into the engine line shooting from zero.

Gunsight line of sight intersects the 400m impact point at (-12ft).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Range(M)..m\sec...ToF.....Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0...............500......0... .....0........0...........0
50.............486....(.10s)...(2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100...........472....(.21s)...(8in).....(6.8ft)...(3.7in)
150...........459....(.31s)...(1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200...........446....(.42s)...(2.7ft)...(14.0ft)..(8.4in)
250...........434....(.54s)...(4.4ft)...###.......(11.0in)
300...........422....(.63s)...(6.5ft)...(21.9ft)..(1.1ft)
350...........411....(.77s)...(9.0ft)...###.......(1.3ft)
400...........400....(.90s)...(12.0ft)..(30.2ft)..(1.6ft)<--- Revi LoS intersects here.
425.......................... ............................. ..(1.7ft)
450...........390....(1.02s)..(15.5ft)..###.......######
500...........379....(1.15s)..(19.6ft)..(39.2ft)..######
525.......................... ............................. ..(2.25ft)
550...........370....(1.29s)..(24.0ft)..###.......######
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I pulled data sets flying at 290TA which lines the center of the spinner with the center of the offline target. Engine line at zero. Convergences at 150, 250 650. Hitech generaly keeps to the dispersion numbers similare to the real ones now. Notice the dramatic differences in Impact Point based on titling that barrel up throught the crank case. As you can see if you want to be even a smidgen historicly honest set your convergence to 150. This is true for all engine mounted cannon in the game.

GcTc - Gunsight center relative to Target centerline or Gunsight Line of Sight (LoS).
Drop - Impact point of tater below the gunsight center point at the given distance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

K4 MK108 at 150 Convergence.

Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(-10in)
150yd........(0.0)........(0.0)
250yd........(-9in).......(0.0)<---Shoots like a slow lazer to 150-250.
350yd........(-2ft)........(-3ft)
450yd........(-4ft)........(-8ft)<--The real K4 LoS and drop = 12ft about here.
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(-16ft)
650yd........(-5.75ft)...(-30ft)<--Real tater dropped about 30ft at this point.
--------------------------------------------

K4 MK108 at 250 Convergence.

Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(-10in)
150yd........(-10in).....(-5in)
250yd........(0.0)........(0.0)<---Still shoots like a slow lazer to 250.
350yd........(-2ft)........(-2ft)
450yd........(-4ft)........(-6.5ft) <---This tells you the barrel is tilting up.
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(-14.5ft)
650yd........(-7.75ft)...(-28.75ft) <---Not (-30ft) is it. Barrel is tilted up.
----------------------------------------

K4 MK108 at 650 Convergence.

Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(2ft)<---Wow 2 feet high at 100 yards.
150yd........(5in)........(4ft)
250yd........(-9in).......(6.75ft)<---Waa lazer done gone awayaaaaa.
350yd........(-1.8ft).....(7ft)
450yd........(-2.6ft).....(5ft) <---Wow hollow shaft should poke out between the MG like a Jr. Schräge Musik. Piu, Piu, Piu....
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(1.5ft)
650yd........(-5.75ft)...(-9.5ft) <---Tater drops like a lead brick past 250. This should be (-30ft). Bombers Beware the TILT handicapp of death.
---------------------------------------------------------

In the game you shoot the flatest between 100yd-300yd if you set your MK108 convergence 150-200. Dispersion does not change with changes in convergence, it stays the same. As you pull the convergence past 250 your elevation increases exponentially above your LoS to drop the rounds down to your targets past 250. You can see why convergence in the K4 becomes a very confusing arcane subject that only a handfull of players have mastered. They pick one short convergence and never change it.

I really wish Hitech would lock all these motor auto cannon into the historicly mounted zero line of the airscrew shafts. Then you would have a single common discussion about lead, elevation and shot timing. As is you have as many versions of the concept as convergence choices turning it into a tower of Babel. German pilots only talked (-12ft) at 437 yards(400m).

Look at my 3 simple charts. 150@450yd(-8ft) or 250@450yd(-6.5ft) or 650@450yd(+1.5ft). And I only tested 2 commonly used convergence with 150 as the closest to historical.