really hitec

[PR3D4TOR]

The Tiger was the result of the German Armaments Ministry issuing a specification for a new heavy tank to Daimler-Benz, Henschel, MAN and Porsche in 1937. The initial design contract was awarded to Henschel. In 1939 Porsche was also contracted for prototypes. However, the "Tigerprogram" was not given much priority until 1941 when the shortcomings of the Pz III and Pz IV were becoming apparent.

I don't think anyone's suggested that the Tiger II was "a follow on" to the Panther; certainly not I. The Panther was a MAN design and the Tiger II a later Henschel design intended to share as many components with the Panther as possible, including engine and suspension components. Some Panther components were redesigned to facilitate this too. The Tiger II, as the name suggests, is an evolution of the Tiger I, with thicker sloped front armor and a higher velocity 88 mm, the revised "breakthrough" tank, even if not the one best used to further exploit that breakthrough and actually, fast becoming the tank more useful to stop a breakthrough than start one. It was also, very importantly, easier to manufacture than the original Tiger.

[SmokinLoon]

It does not matter which tank gun is the topic of conversation or what thickness the armor is either, all that matters is the range of the target, the angle in which the projectile impacted, and the resulting damage that was caused.

A LOT can be learned from watching videos and freezing the impact of the projectile "tracer" as it passes through the target.  

Take a squad mate, get in to the dueling arena, and test out exactly what the ranges are for AP penetration.  I've tested out most of the tanks straight up vs one another and many people would be surprised at just how little of an angle change in the projectile to armor is needed to deflect or absorb damage.  It would raise a lot of eyebrows, that I know.  I have notes with almost every tank vs tank testing I did, the ranges and angle of impact to the hull and turret (front).  Sometimes all it takes is 5-10° of a change to make the armor effective enough for survival.

Very few things are absolute in the tank game in AH.  I think HTC has done a good job at modeling tanks for the most part.  My issue is the total and absolute reload times the tanks have, I think a few need to be adjusted based on multiple factors.  HTC has taken arbitrary numbers and made them absolute.    

 

[Tank-Ace]

I was honestly shocked when I found out how big of a difference angle of impact makes. I was so shocked, infact, that I thought it was a bug and emailed HTC.

[PR3D4TOR]

Did you get a reply?

[B4Buster]

Great info Predator. Very informative.

[SmokinLoon]

Did you get a reply?

Once upon a time, as in sometime last summer (2011) , I was in a Panther tank and was destroyed by a M4/76mm from 2800 yards out with an impact that hit the right front tread (from the front) and entered the hull about 2/3 the way back at maybe a 20° angle of impact.  I emailed the film to HTC, posted it here in the forums.  I heard not a word, no response, no nuffin'.  I believe it was the next update that had a "fixed various damage bugs" in the itemized change log.  Since then, I have tested the Panther out in the DA and can not replicate that kill AND I no longer fear the basic tank beyond 1600 yards to my front.  Only another Panther, Tiger, Firefly, or King Tiger cause me to sweat a bit when they are at long ranges (2000 + yards), all else the Panther can shrug off.

[dirtdart]

The trouble I have is the penetration chart and the ranges seems to not matter.  I am often curious how I can hit a Panzer IV with a 76mm from a M18 at less than 500 yds and not kill the tank from the front.  Sideways, sure, but yesterday I shot a Panzer IV twice in the front hull from less than 500, got solid hit sprites, and was killed.  If I read the charts correctly, there should be no where on a panzer IV that is invulnerable to a 76mm AP at that range.  Where am I wrong in my thinking?  

[PR3D4TOR]

I don't know if the "shatter gap" is modeled or not. It was a result of allied AP ammo being too soft and the Germans using face-hardened armor plates. Rounds that could penetrate beyond 1000 yards would fail at shorter ranges, or hits would fail at short range and then start to penetrate further out. The round literally shattered due to the enormous energies involved before it could penetrate the armor, kind of like the first few rounds in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

[SmokinLoon]

The trouble I have is the penetration chart and the ranges seems to not matter.  I am often curious how I can hit a Panzer IV with a 76mm from a M18 at less than 500 yds and not kill the tank from the front.  Sideways, sure, but yesterday I shot a Panzer IV twice in the front hull from less than 500, got solid hit sprites, and was killed.  If I read the charts correctly, there should be no where on a panzer IV that is invulnerable to a 76mm AP at that range.  Where am I wrong in my thinking?  

I know the feeling.  I put 3 rounds dead on at 1000 yards with as close to a 90° impact angle as one can get vs a Tiger I and nothing.  One shot from the Tiger to my Panther's turret front and "puuf" up in smoke I go.

I have no clue as to how the damage model actually works, only HTC does.  But I will bet that there are areas of the tank that AP rounds penetrate and otherwise do no real damage to the interior.  Perhaps some sort of internal "hit box". 

[Tank-Ace]

If I had to guess, I would probably say your rounds just passed clean through the tank, loon, while the tiger's 88mm hit the ammo in your turret or something.

[PR3D4TOR]

Another thing I'm not sure is modeled is the explosive filler in the standard German AP shell, the Panzergranate 39 (APCBC-HE-T). The 88 mm Pzgr 39, 39-1 and 39/43 used the explosive filling no. 92; Hexogen 10, a mixture of 90% Hexogen (RDX) and 10% wax. Any penetration into the crew compartment of a tank by German AT guns of 50 mm or greater would normally be catastrophic as the shell explodes, sending shrapnel bouncing around inside the compartment.

[Tank-Ace]

I know the KwK 43 has that modeled (LuscheI think did some tests, and found the AP shells of the 88mm were as effective as the HE shells of a 75mm).


But IIRC, most of Germany's shells weren't APCBCHE, they were only APCBC.

[PR3D4TOR]

With the exception of the 7.5 cm Kan. L/24 on the early Pz IV, all the German guns modeled in the game used APCBC-HE-T as standard.

For example the 75 mm KwK 40 (Pz IV) had the following ammunition options:

Pzgr. Patr. 39 KwK 40 (Armour Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap High Explosive round)
Pzgr. Patr. 40 KwK 40 (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid)
Gr. Patr. 38 HL/B KwK 40 (High Explosive Anti-Tank)
Gr. Patr. 38 HL/C KwK 40 (High Explosive Anti-Tank)
7.5 cm Sprgr.Patr.34 KwK 40 (High Explosive)

[Butcher]

Then why have hit sprites at all if they don't represent where your projectile has hit?

Because at a distance the hit sprite is blown up to show a "hit", however if you film it - zoom FAR onto the enemy tank you can clearly see where the round penetrates.

On my 30inch monitor, I can see hit sprites far out as 3,000 yards in a Panther, which leads me to view the film viewer often if I believe it was a square hit - and often it wasn't (i.e track hit, or glaced off the armor)

It might look like a dead kill, but often times its a deflection or it simply didn't penetrate all the way.

You can fire a shot, get a penetrating kill shot - but the tank doesn't die. For example get in a panzer 4 H, and at 1,000 yards shoot a Tiger in the front. Just because you see a hit sprite and kill shot, doesn't make it so.

[Tank-Ace]

Butcher, you've been saying this for a while, but I'm confused on a point or two.

When you say "but often times its.... all the way", do you mean that the game is giving out erroneous hit sprites? From my expirience, you only get a hit sprite if you actually penetrate the armor, and that if you don't penetrate the armor (both from deflections, and just non-penetrations) the game represents it visually as a ricochet.



Same with the Panzer IV firing on a Tiger I. You get either a hit sprite and a kill after a couple of shells, or a ricochet. However its important to note that the offline drones don't have a real damage model, and are all or nothing.