More SdKfz 251 variants

[Tank-Ace]

Well, we already have the SdKfz 251/1-II, but theres more variants that could be added, and would get the poor thing some more use in the game.

I would like to request the:

SdKfz 251/9 "Stummel" (stump): Basicly just an SdKfz 251 with the front MG turret removed, and a low velocity 75mm KwK 37 mounted in its place. It probably wouldn't be used much (or even at all, really) outside of EW, but it would give us a vehicle similar to the M3(75) for the Axis.

SdKfz 251/10: The same as the /9, but with a 37mm Pak 36 instead of the 75mm KwK 37. If we ever get around to adding more EW tanks, it would be more usefull than the 75mm in the EW areana as far as anti-tank work goes, mostly because of the flatter trajectory and higher rate of fire.


SdKfz 251/21: An SdKfz 251  3 20mm Mg151/20's mounted back. It would give us something inbetween a Wirblewind and an M16, which would be quite interesting. The armor of an M3, Speed inbetween the two, and almost the same firepowr as the Wirblewind, and all packaged up into a smaller vehicle.

SdKfz 251/22 Same as the 251/9 and /10, but mounting the more powerfull Pak 40 L'46 in its place. This would be probably the most used variant, as it provides good firepower, and decent speed in small easy to conceal profile. This wouldn't make too bad of a tank destroyer if used properly; I could easily picture high velocity rounds from inside an undestroyed barn slamming into the side of a Tiger.



The best part is that we essentially already have 3 of these guns in the game. The 75mm L'24, the 20mm, and the Pak 40 was identicle to the KwK 40 in terms of preformance. The way I see it, we would need at least two vehicles if we add all of these, 3 depending on which ones would be added, and when the cut-off date for EW is.

Ideally, we would see an EW version, a MW/LW version, and a 251/21.

If we don't want to have 3 different guns on 1 vehicle (251/9, /10, and /22), and the 251/22 DOES makes it into EW arena, then we could just drop the 251/9. But if it doesn't, the 251/9 would be nice to have for the firepower of the 75mm in EW.

[Devonai]

I agree.  I don't think I've seen a 251 in LW in something like three years.

[Butcher]

I agree.  I don't think I've seen a 251 in LW in something like three years.

251 is slow, with less defensive armament then the M3 - thus is why you won't see them often.

[Karnak]

SdKfz 251/21: An SdKfz 251  3 20mm Mg151/20's mounted back. It would give us something inbetween a Wirblewind and an M16, which would be quite interesting. The armor of an M3, Speed inbetween the two, and almost the same firepowr as the Wirblewind, and all packaged up into a smaller vehicle.

Are you sure they were MG151/20s?  The 20mm Flakvierling 38 cannons on the Wirbelwind are very much superior to the MG151/20

[SmokinLoon]

251 is slow, with less defensive armament then the M3 - thus is why you won't see them often.

At 33 mph, it can hang with the tanks and in many case that is all it needs to do when a tank rush in in the works.  Also, I'm sure it has something to so with the sloped armor since it doesn't have any more armor than the M3, but it does seem to be able to take enemy fire better, most notably field AA and MG fire from other gv's and aircraft.  Where the SdKfZ 251 would benefit is if it could carry a gunner so both of the MG's could be used in tandem.     

However, the ability of the SdKfz 251 variant we have to carry 24 of the 28cm rockets is rather devastating.  If it can get close enough to the town (town needs to be de-acked) to let loose its Hell it becomes a different story.  But then again, it seems to be more of a topic of M3 vs SdKfz 251 troops carrier than anything.

The Germans used the SdKfz 251 throughout the war in multiple roles, and they performed all of those roles very well.  Some will say it was superior to the M3, and it was in ways that AH can not measure.  The OP mentioned a few variants, but I'll add my 2 cents:

1: The -9 variant has a short barreled 7.5cm infantry support cannon, it fires the SAME HE ammo as the Panzer Mk IV but at a higher rate of fire.  It would not carry any AP.

2: The -21 would bridge the gap in effectiveness of the Wirblewind and M16.  It would have 3/20mm cannons (MG 151/20, same as Wirblewind), be 9 mph faster than Wirby and 18mph slower than M16. Then the ENY of all 4 AA vehicles could be properly adjusted.

3: The -22 would bring something we currently do not have in the AH: a very powerful AT gun, medium speed, and no armor, and no perk cost.  The 7.5cm Pak 40 L/46 (same as Panzer IV H) would be a force to be reckoned with.

As the OP already said, all of these weapons are already in the game.  The chassis is already in the game.  Essentially, only the weapons platform on the back of the chassis needs to be modeled.       

[Lusche]

 Where the SdKfZ 251 would benefit is if it could carry a gunner so both of the MG's could be used in tandem.  

Or having the same kind of MG mount as the M3


On a more serious note, speed is the main "issue" of the SdKFz in AH. I reckon most base captures are made after the call "AXX WF, need troops NOW", and not by M3/SdKFz accompanying an an intial rush/mission.
And in such a situation, speed is king, the killer criterion. The somewhat higher durability of the 251 doesn't help much if enemy tanks or fighters are hunting you. You want to get to the maproom as fast as possible before you are spotted.

Interestingly we saw some more "usage" of the 251 before the M4(75) was introduced... "damage hit%" in GV mode... especially with the old zone strats    

I agree.  I don't think I've seen a 251 in LW in something like three years.

In 2011, about 100.000 M3's were killed in the LW MA, in contrast to only 3.300 SdKFz.

[Lusche]

Are you sure they were MG151/20s? 

Late in the war the MG 151/20 was used quite a number of kinda "makeshift" AA roles, a triple mounting on the 251 was one of them


(Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseitenneu/MG151Drilling.htm )

[Denniss]

Wirbelwind had 2cm Flak38 while the 251/21 had 2cm MG 151/20. Flak gun has longer, more powerful cartridge for more range/alt/penetration but rather slow RoF. MG 151/20 is belt fed and has a high RoF and, although less penetration power, it could be fed with mine shells containing large amounts of explosives (compared to other 2cm guns).
And no, the /22 did not use the same gun as the Pz IV H, it carried the standard Pak variant.

BTW the /21 prototype used either dummy guns or MG 151, production versions were to use the MG 151/20.

[Karnak]

Sounds like a good use of HTC's dev time to get some more versions then.  The AA version could be a nice step in the AA vehicle capability spectrum.  It would be nice to see more of these used.

[Tank-Ace]

Denniss, the Pak 40 L'46 had the same preformance as the KwK 40 L'48, visually we would just need to change the barrel length, and create the Pak 40's gun shield.



And like I said, it depends on if the 251/22 would make it into EW. I wasn't aware of the fact that the 251/9 didn't carry any AP rounds, so the 251/10 is doubly usefull in EW arena if the 251/22 doesn't fit into that time span.

[321BAR]

wouldn't mind seein a few Axis AT halftracks also

[Denniss]

Denniss, the Pak 40 L'46 had the same preformance as the KwK 40 L'48, visually we would just need to change the barrel length, and create the Pak 40's gun shield.

Actually the L/46 was a tad better (by ~8mm) with standard ammo while the L/48 was a tad better (by ~5mm) with Tungsten core ammo, all at 500m and a 30 degree plate.

[SmokinLoon]

Interestingly we saw some more "usage" of the 251 before the M4(75) was introduced... "damage hit%" in GV mode... especially with the old zone strats    

I'll put money on it that the reason is because previously to the M4/75 Calliope, only the SdKfz 251 could satisfy the "bombing %" category for the score hoars.  Enter in the M4/75 Calliope that can take town ack hits thanks to plenty of armor, bring 90-some powerful HE rounds along for the ride, and 60 rockets to bear on a town.... which would YOU take to satisfy that category???