Replace 190a8 with a9!

[Karnak]

I was just wondering where Hitech got the extra 200lbs stuffed in there......what are they, or is that 91kg the wiggle weight played with by sources.

Probably the same source Wmaker is quoting, which is a primary source document from Focke-Wulfe.

[Charge]

91kg is the weight of 115ltr fuel tank in aft fuselage. Take 100% and you see that AUX is installed. Take 75% and you notice that A8 weights 4300kg and does not have AUX.

The tank was different for all fuel, GM-1 and MW50 so I presume it was relatively easy to take out if it was not used.

I always fly A8 with 75% fuel.

-C+

[Torquila]

Ah, so; in the tests presumably they didn't have the AUX tank installed?

Am I understanding this right?

[bustr]

From: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8-733705-2.html

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Condition:
 Engine 801 D-2/316248 
 A-8 production condition (without outer wing weapons). 
 Armament: 2 Mg 131, 2 MG 151 (MG 151 with 230 rounds ammunition each). 
 ETC 501. Fixed wheel flaps. 
 Perlon-landing-gear tires the Firm Conti 25.10. ./. 10.11. 
 Ballast: In the FT area 10 kg. 
 In fuselage center instead of drop tank 125 kg. 
 Between ground flap and master compass 75 kg. 
 30.10. ./. 6.11.44 Take-off weight G  =  4224 kg 
                             Center of gravity position = 0.78 m.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. After replacement of the engine that failed from supercharger damage, serial No. 328909, level speeds using combat and take-off power were flown in the as-delivered condition. With consideration of Flight Report Nr 1 represented ram pressure measurements the salient points of the speed plots produced the following values:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. For the check of the rear position of the center of gravity for bad weather fighters the machine was brought, through ballast, to a rear center of gravity with full drop tank from s = 0.78 ./. 0.76 m . With this the airplane is significantly unstable and must be flown carefully. Only after consumption of the fuel supply up to approximately 100 litres for each main fuselage tank, thus a S-position of 0.72 m, is determined to give sufficient stability around the transverse axis. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I've found over the years the term "as delivered" means they requested a factory standard production non modified aircraft. In this case they requested the 2 - 20mm factory version.

Tested factory version 2-20mm: 4224kg

Ases High A8 2-20mm: 4245kg <--- arguing over 21kg 
Aces High A5 2-20mm: 3893kg

So our game argument is over 91kg with the 4-20mm A8 version? I still think when we are talking A8 it's hippos in pink TuTu's. The A5 is a dancing rodeo bull.

[Denniss]

Someone should get the BMW engine numbers right, the 801TU used an 801Q-2 engine which was basically a D-2 with the strengthened oil tank/oil cooler armor. It had exactly the same power as the 801D-2.
The Fw 190 A-8 manual of September 1944 (data from July 1944) has 4272 kg for a fully armed and fueled A-8 ..... without aux tank. Aux tank installed and filled added another 120kg (this weight may include the required ETC 501 installation).

During the testflights the aircraft may have been 100% armed and fueled but they have also been lightened by leaving out some stuff (some radio components, survival kits, whatever) as both the official Luftwaffe aircraft manuals and Fw's own range/performance calculations use weights close to 4400kg.

[bustr]

Then Hitech is calcualting the correct Lead(Pb) TuTu for this hippo and life is good.........

I've always noticed once I got to about 3/4 Aux tank burned off, this hippo started dancing like a husky rodeo bull. Or is this whole long standing argument that it should dance like a bull moose in rut? Thats how I look at the A5's performance with 2-20mm at 3/4 aux tank burned. Hippos do kill more people every year than bulls and moose.

[Torquila]

That means theres nothing wrong with the A-8 then?

CAN I HAZ A-9 NAO? KTHNX

[Krusty]

Incorrect. The weights are wrong. Any standard Fw190A-8 with 4x20mm (by the way they almost never came from the factory with just 2 guns) weighed 4300kg fully loaded in combat configuration. That's with radios, guns, pilots, full fuel, aux tank, etc.


Picking apart one single manual released around the time Sturmbocks were being introduced, referencing A8/R8 configurations and weights, and even referencing engines the standard A8 did not have....


.... does not refer to a stock A8.


Try finding more than one reference next time. Make sure it's not referring to a subvariant that weighs more.

[bustr]

You are begining to loose your audience in this private fight with HTC, WMaker and Denniss.

Can you post up links or pages from the pertinant hand books? Otherwise there is now no way to keep track of the players being argued over.

What constitutes the authoritive narritve from one period in 44 to another on what is the standard list of peices of "stuff" an A8 should roll off the floor loaded into it? Which narritve did HTC choose? What is wrong with the test I linked in which a Facotry A8 was requsitioned sans outboard 20mm? The game gives us that option so HTC decided it was standard enough from some source.

Why is one handbook more definative versus another across releases in 44?

It's obvious the 4 parties in this whizzing match have seen all of the same documents. Why are three of them wrong and you are right?

[Charge]

"Ah, so; in the tests presumably they didn't have the AUX tank installed?
Am I understanding this right?"

Sorry I was not too clear about this. The 91kg is just the weight of the 115ltrs of fuel, not the tank and tubing. If there is nothing mounted in rear compartment the weight drop is bigger. As the AUX tank shifted the CoG rearwards if was used only for long range or transfer flights and it was to be empty by the time of action. Thus I presume that its full fuel weight was possibly left out of calculations for pure fighter configuration. While it is possible that there were planes with AUX tank removed altogether it is likely not a representative of an aircraft coming out of factory.

What is confusing, however, is that the designation R5 is reserved for Rüstsatz of 115ltr AUX tank in A8. Why assign and identifier for it if it is factory fitted?

-C+

[Denniss]

Do you have primary evidence of the /R5 designation for the aux tank? I have not seen this designation in FW or Luftwaffe documents, AFAIR the Aux tank was not factory-installed in the first A-8 production series but was to be retrofitted at the unit level.

The CoG shift was cured by the mandatory ETC 501 carrier mount moved forwards, the aux tank was always used (if enough fuel available) for longer range combat missions. It's very much possible it was emptied first though (on the way to target/interception point). Later on the aux tank was used for the MW-50 boosting agent.

[Charge]

"Do you have primary evidence of the /R5 designation for the aux tank? I have not seen this designation in FW or Luftwaffe documents, AFAIR the Aux tank was not factory-installed in the first A-8 production series but was to be retrofitted at the unit level."

You may be right. FW190A8 handbook dated effective 1944 July onwards does not seem mention AUX in default configuration at all. Its total weight fuel + tank is 116kg. Aircraft weight in this configuration (fighter) without AUX tank is 4287kg. AUX tank and its installation is mentioned as "when required" suggesting that it is not installed if not needed. That would indicate also that there was a need for designation to those machines that had it installed. R5 is only used in A8 which had the floor opening for installation (as a side note both original FW190Ds on display in USA have these installed, default configuration for Ds?).

My source for R5 designation is Focke Wulf FW190 in action, Squadron Signal publications, Jerry L Campbell.

If the tank would be omitted in 75% fuel loadout in AH it would mean weight saving of only 25kg. I'd rather have the AUX than need to take DT+ETC if longer range is needed.

-C+

[bustr]

Was there a time the Aux tank was not a part of a factory standard A8 but, instead an addon? If in fact the 91kg is accounted for by the weight of the fuel in our current A8 version in the game. If you select 75% fuel in the hanger the Aft tank selector shows  at 80%. Two internal fuel tanks forward and rear are standard. The Aux system behind bulkhead 8 was for GM_1 or fuel.

A8 4-20mm 100% fuel, weight: 4391kg

A8 4-20mm   75% fuel, weight: 4277kg

114kg is not quite 91kg but the Aux system was about 120kg. Are we splitting hairs here per chance?

A8 4-20mm 100% fuel, ETC 501, weight: 4441kg
ETC 501: 50kg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Manual D.(Luft) T. 2190 A-8 July 1944, Issued September 1944

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Data page 2.

4. Power Plant

A. Engine

BMW-801D
------------------------
C. Tanks

Behind bulkhead 8 there is also provision for the Installation of a GM_1 tank, 85, Liter (18.7 gal) capacity, or an auxillary fuel tank, 115 Liter (25.3 gal) capacity.

------------------------

5. Equipment
C. Armament modifications

Various weapons installations are available; the changes apply to the wing mounted weapons only.
The sub-designations are as follows:

A-8/R1    2 x 2 MG 151/20E
A-8/R2    2 MK 108
A-8/R3    2 MK 103

---------
General Data page 3.

B. Aircraft Data
4. Weight Data

Mission Type I

I: Fighter operations with 2 MG 131s and 4  MG 151/20Es

Weight in lbs.
Empty weight....................... .........6750
Additional equipment.................... ...858

Empty equpped weight...................7608
Pilot........................ ......................222
Fuel, forward (51.1 gal)...................402
Fuel, rear (64.4 gal)........................504
Drop tank (66.2 gal)......................------
Oil (12.1 gal)............................. ....111
Ammunition MG 131
                       (2 x450 rounds)......170
Ammunition MG 151/20E
     (wing-roots)(2 x 250 rounds)......243
Ammunition MG 151/20E
       (outboard)(2 x 140 rounds).......137
Disposable weight on ETC 501........-------
Winter-emergency equipment.............55

Loaded weight....................... .......9452 (4287kg)
-------------------------
GM_1 or Aux system approx.............265

Updated Aux weight....................... 9717 (4407 kg)
-------------------------
Loaded weight and ETC 501............9827 (4457 kg)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is Krusty arguing for the non-GM boosted TypeI A8 fighter package? I'm still confused. Has HTC specified if the Aux tank and boost system is installed behind bulkhead 8. Or is our A8's boost system still petrol injected into the air intake? Are we using an HTC Cartoon special giving us 4391kg which is driving Krusty nuts?

[Babalonian]

You obviously don't understand the gravity of the situation.  190 threads are no laughing matter, they're serious business!

Wiley.

     Sig worthy.


I try to stay away, but then something just keeps dragging me back in to them!


Edit: Bustr and Charge, fantastic digging and citations.

[Torquila]

FW190 pilot