Why not experiment with the CVs a little?

[Babalonian]

This started with the return of an old player in our squad recently.  One evening he commented about how different things were now because of the NOE/radar changes made a while ago.  Then the next, it was along the lines of "boy, some things sure do never change around here" as he was gettign pegged by manned puffy ack from an enemy CV within birthing range of the rearm pad.



OK, well not really, I'm positive most these ideas have been slung around before if not to death by others, so I'm just trying to pawn them out. 

I wonder why it hasn't been tried after so long and so many ideas thrown out there?  Some variables may be map dependant (adding multiple cruisers and CVs to one task group) but many could be adjusted gradualy or instantly and reverted just as quickly if a problem is found.

Most are great ideas, almost all of them share a goal of either adding to the CV gameplay element or of trying to curb bad trends in player strategy/behavior.

- No Icon on enemy a/c to ship gunners for all enemy a/c under 100/200/300' alt, unlimited distance.
- Scalable auto-AAA lethality, have it scale with the ac so torpedo planes have a chance, 4-engined buffs get a bigger chore, etc..
- Disable all manned auto-pufy detonating below a certain altitude (maybe 2/300').  Add/model to the 5" shells that impact water some form of "HE" explosion (damaging to a/c and small vessels like PTs and LVTs).
- 3k-altitude lower-limit of puffy with CV radar up, 5k alt limit with the radar down.
- Let's toughen up CVs but also make them seem more mortal - increase them to requiring 11.5k total damage (I think current is 8.5k), but much how ~1k or even less of ordnance can disable an airfield's ordnance capabilties, lets start adding more tiers of damage to a CV than simpley Fully-Up/Smoking+Radar-Down/Sunk.  IE: Fully-Up/Smoking+Radar-Down/Smoking+Ord-Down/Smoking+Troops&Sups-Down/Smoking+Fuel-Limit.
- I feel auto-puffy above 21k gives away the task group to more enemy a/c than anything else.  This debatable I'm sure  I wish I could think of a way that a passing set of B-17s at 28k doesn't get tipped off by puffy, while at the same time bombers don't start routinely start hutning CVs purely above Xk to take advantage.  Maybe someday, when there's more clouds or obstacles presented to thwart very high-alt CV-hunting buffs (as rare and sparse as they already are).
- Increase offshore distance, increase the distance required to be withing "launching" range on towns from LVTs (but not the distance they have to travel from spawn to town).
- I don't want to "nurf" manned puffy ack, but I do want to see players weened off of being acustomed to it like it were the ultimate CV AAA "swiss army knife" for every angle, altitude and flavor of threat.  With little doubt they were the king of a CV's defence for anything/everything beyond the range of the 20 and 40mms, but within the range of those guns the AH CV 5" still reigns supreme.  I would like to see increased use of 20mm and 40mm CV defences, especialy at the ranges they were lethal at, but as it is they only seem to get filled usualy after all the 5"ers have been taken.

[Melvin]

1) Take off from a base further back.

Or

2) Sink carrier.

Or implement a bunch of gamey restrictions upon one of the games premier weapon systems.

[Babalonian]

How some get pegged for blatant trolling and others don't....  anyways, Mr. Melvin....

1) Take off from a base further back.

Or

2) Sink carrier.

Or implement a bunch of gamey restrictions upon one of the games premier weapon systems.

First, please learn to count past two.  Now then: 

1) could of just said "I didn't read you post, I'm too important" rather than post a rhetorical responce to an unrelated non-rhetoric post.

2) gladly, I do it all the time.... you didn't read my post, did you? 

3) (a) your definition of "impliment" as if (b) there aren't a bunch gamey restrictions already that currently govern a CVs actions/utilisation?... currently you can't drive it too close to land/fuields, there's a "gamey restrition" already IMPIMENTED in the game for that (some maps are bugged though and it can happen).  You can't get shot with auto-puffy below 3k altitude, another current gamey restriction I'm askign for adjsutment on, not implimentation.  You can drive a task group within X distance of your objective and have your LVTs magicly spawn Y distance from the town or field... not gamey at all.  You can bomb a ship with 8,499 lbs of ordnance, 1-lb short of sinking it in AH, and only ding its radar and a few manned gun stations... how or why would my suggestions posted possibley make that additionaly gamey?


Do elaborate Melvin, please.


Must of been the bright shiney picture I used to start this thread off with...

[4Prop]

I can definantly  agree that the CV ack is a little to over powered at GREAT ranges. I've been so far away from a CV before I could barely make out the whole TG and it wacks me in 3 hits. I dont think, even with the best gunners/radar operators that those shots could ever be made.

[Melvin]

How some get pegged for blatant trolling and others don't.... 

Because I don't agree at all with what you are suggesting I am a troll? Get over yourself.

how or why would my suggestions posted possibley make that additionaly gamey?


Do elaborate Melvin, please.

How is adding various restrictions on effectiveness due to altitude, plane type, and even weapon caliber not gamey?

- Scalable auto-AAA lethality, have it scale with the ac so torpedo planes have a chance, 4-engined buffs get a bigger chore, etc..
Gamey

- Disable all manned auto-pufy detonating below a certain altitude (maybe 2/300').  Add/model to the 5" shells that impact water some form of "HE" explosion (damaging to a/c and small vessels like PTs and LVTs).
Gamey

- 3k-altitude lower-limit of puffy with CV radar up, 5k alt limit with the radar down.
Gamey

- Increase offshore distance, increase the distance required to be withing "launching" range on towns from LVTs (but not the distance they have to travel from spawn to town).
Gamey

I wasn't trolling, I was simply giving you the answer to your frustration at having been constantly owned by some random CV's puffy ack.

And I didn't even resort to insults or questions of your intelligence. Because, why bother right?

[guncrasher]

Babs, there isnt any bigger cv sinker than me that I know of.

i can sink a cv with 1 set of b26's at less than 6k and come out with very little damage.  auto ack from cv on buffs is not a big deal, even the auto mg's wont shoot at me untill about 3 seconds before i drop the bombs, then I make evasive maneuvers as I dive for the deck.  unless they have good gunners on the cv and that is very rare, it's not a big deal to sink it. 

as much as I would like it to be more challenging to sink it, I am more afraid that it will be used more like the bishops do it.  very often they bring 2 or 3 cv's to 1 base, i have seen as many as 5 cv's all bunched up together within a sector to take one fricking base.

the changes you propose are cool with me as long as they cannot bring a cv withing auto ack distance of a base.  this is one of the things that really annoys the crap out of everybody.  to be hit by cv ack as you are taking off from a base.  cv's were never meant to be close to land.  they would send their fighters/bombers from a hundred miles away.  (I bet akak will bring some instance where the cv was brought right along the beach that the gunners used slingshots to kill enemy soldiers ).

semp

[Dover]

semp if they keep the cv's further off shore then they would have to increase the spawn range of lvt's or make it so parts of the group could go closer in to shell the shore and land troops like they did in real life

[4Prop]

semp if they keep the cv's further off shore then they would have to increase the spawn range of lvt's or make it so parts of the group could go closer in to shell the shore and land troops like they did in real life

in real life they didnt spawn 50 ft from shore

[Zexx]

Personally The CV in game performs roles that would take additional ships- Namely the "Ship Tenders" and "L.S.T's" (landing Ship Troop). Honestly I'm not sure you can add to or subtract from the way Carrier groups operate in game without taking away from original intent of the Game: Aircraft

at any rate here's how i see things ( forgive my dissection of your post but I wanted to address certain items according to my level of knowledge):

- No Icon on enemy a/c to ship gunners for all enemy a/c under 100/200/300' alt, unlimited distance.
I can see the  100' limit for an aircraft having no Icon. Why?  Reflection or dead space in radar caused by echoes or "ground" clutter (sound wave refraction). I think 30k limit Horizontal and 20K vertical on radar range is perfect as far as scalable distances go. Again Radio wave refraction would cause "Clutter", and reduce each based on the weather of the Arena. Partly cloudy reduces vertical detection by 25%, Overcast/Rainy reduces it by 50% Storm/low clouds ceiling by 75%. However at "night/twilight" increase range by 25%/10%/ 0% (weather dependent). The presence of "Fog" would negate any chance of detection by defending or attacking forces (again scalable due to the thickness of the Fog)

- Scalable auto-AAA lethality, have it scale with the ac so torpedo planes have a chance, 4-engined buffs get a bigger chore, etc..

Personally AAA lethality does scale. It become more accurate as you close in with carrier group (unless you have some really great gunners on manned AAA). You can't really perform evasive maneuvers outside of "jinking" if you want  any reasonable chance of hitting your target.

- Disable all manned auto-pufy detonating below a certain altitude (maybe 2/300').  Add/model to the 5" shells that impact water some form of "HE" explosion (damaging to a/c and small vessels like P.T.s and L.V.Ts).

 Some guns on the CV do have a negative elevation or traverse making them less lethal the closer you get and the lower to the water you are. However their elevation dead space is negated by any amount of distance and elevation beyond +/-10 degrees horizontal (assuming 25ft or less elevation) for an attacking aircraft (or even P.T.) If your that close the CV is dead anyway. As for water detonations and collateral damage caused from them  honestly they are fine. I think they accurately emulate what would happen under normal battle conditions. However i can see being able to Use 5" AAA to damage L.V.T's and P.T.'s the same way they do Aircraft is feasible- essentially a shot gun. Maybe allow the gunners to set an appropriate delay much like bomber crews get to set the delay on Ordnance drop in bombers while leaving rate of fire unchanged especially if the ship's radar was disabled.

Making C.V.'s more durable just "nerfs" them. The greatest weakness to any Carrier was its "Flattop". All carriers of the period featured a wooden flight deck that had a relatively thin armored deck underneath. However I can see adding a layer of damage points to the hull of the ship rather than to the entire ship. However bear in mind Carriers relied on speed and agility to stay afloat. It was also necessary to be "light" in order to effectively change with the wind for Carrier operations. if you add ant Damage layer then scale the perceived speed of the carrier down as well.

Honestly P.T.'s should only be available at Host Nation Ports, this leaving L.V.T's for launch from the Carrier group so as to simulate the presence of an L.S.T. Having them available at Airfields that are in close proximity to a large body of water is pushing it in my opinion, but I can see how it would make sense as well. P.T.'s could be used in River missions. Making them a Blue water (open Sea) and Brown water(rivers and fresh water lakes) vessel. However very few maps (if any) features true rivers The Normal use of P.T's was often littoral patrol (coastal) and rarely ventured into open waters for any extended period of time ( a couple of days was not unknown, but often it was in transit from base of operations to the next and in a circuit of patrol).

this is just my opinion, but you do have some points that could give pause for thought.

[guncrasher]

semp if they keep the cv's further off shore then they would have to increase the spawn range of lvt's or make it so parts of the group could go closer in to shell the shore and land troops like they did in real life

yup that's what he said. we could also add the higgins boats and allow them to run at current speed if from the shore with extended range too .


semp

[Dover]

in real life they didnt spawn 50 ft from shore

read that again i said you would have to let other ships go into shore so they could drop off LVT's or make the spawn further they would have never have droped lvts off a carrier they did it off smaller cruisers closer to shore so they where 50 or 100 feet off shore

that was exactly my point

my big thing is another post i put on here DUWK's need to be added they where used more than lvt's and are much more iconic of the time and war

and 2.5 times faster on land

[4Prop]

increase the spawn range of lvt's

do what now?

[Dover]

do what now?

wow you a a idiot and stuck on that one small section reading anything out of context always proves how dumb people are i give up on you prop go hose yourself down

[4Prop]

wow you a a idiot and stuck on that one small section reading anything out of context always proves how dumb people are i give up on you prop go hose yourself down

if "I A Idiot" then "you be dumb".

if the CVs have to stay further out then the LVTs should have a longer ride. so are you saying whether the cv is 4 miles or 400 ft, the LVTs should still only be 50 ft from shore?

[Dover]

if "I A Idiot" then "you be dumb".

if the CVs have to stay further out then the LVTs should have a longer ride. so are you saying whether the cv is 4 miles or 400 ft, the LVTs should still only be 50 ft from shore?

no what im saying is if you have the cv stay further out you need to let the rest or parts of the task group go in closer to drop off lvt's if you don't want to do this like it was done in the war then you need to make the lvt spawn closer
driving them from 50 feet off shore takes to long most of the time if you make it so they have to drive 400 you might as well get rid of the cause everyone will just fly c47's in

last time i'm saying this cause everyone else is like wow he has said that 3 times now and just had to exspand on it for someone who doesn't have a clue