Author Topic: Convergence: Stagger or Not  (Read 3281 times)

Offline Klam

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 05:59:01 PM »
If you gave me a banjo, I still couldn't hit the cow.

109f-4 guns baffle me... :headscratch:   Love the plane but can't hit a thing with it.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2012, 09:29:00 PM »
  I'm not sure what you mean by this but I can tell you regardless of the gun type,the round only rise to the pipper,they never go above it. This is how it's modeled in AH,RL is slightly different.



   :salute

This isn't true.  The rounds DO go above the pipper, dependant upon how you set your convergence.  In order to get your rounds to cross above the LoS in AH, the trick is to set your convergence in as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, which is counter-intuitive to most people.

The trajectory of the rounds in AH is about as spot-on as could be compared to RL.  Especially when it comes to the .50's, which I've spent GOBS of time testing.

With wing mounted .50's set your convergence in to 150yds, and your rounds will be flying at around 5 feet ABOVE the pipper/LoS at 300 yds, 10ft above it at at 600 yds, and won't fall back into line with the pipper/LoS until around 1000yds.

I originally thought as you are (that the rounds would not go above the pipper) but after I figured out the errors I was making during testing I see that they actually do.  The center ring of the dot-target is 20 feet in diameter, so if you hold a steady aim at the center of the ring, and use the center of the pipper as the zero-point I think you'll see what I mean.

The distance the guns are mounted (in feet) is what confuses people about the trajectory patterns in AH.  Everyone is used to the distance a gun is mounted below a scope (in inches), and tries to make comparisons based on that.  It's a matter of scale.  The trajectory is shaped as it should be, it just looks wrong because the scale is so much different.

In order to get the trajectory to appear as we expect it should, HTC would have to model trajectory incorrectly.

With a rifle in RL, sighting-in at 600yds would cause the bullets to arch well above the LoS, while in AH doing so would cause the trajectory to remain below the LoS, which is correct. 

MtnMan

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2012, 09:38:18 PM »
If you gave me a banjo, I still couldn't hit the cow.

109f-4 guns baffle me... :headscratch:   Love the plane but can't hit a thing with it.


Get in close. When you can't possibly get any closer, then let him have it!


Simple enough, really. Getting kills in a 109F is more about self restraint and getting the kill shot rather than spraying. If you well and truly have the shot, the enemy dies in some 20 cannon round (expended, not all hit). Plus sundry 7mm (I always fire both for full effect)

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 11:15:36 PM »
P51D 375,400,425 crossed to create multiple convergences along the patterns if i need to shoot closer or further (which i try very hard not to)

aka inner guns at 425 center guns 400 outer 375.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2012, 11:52:37 AM »
This isn't true.  The rounds DO go above the pipper, dependant upon how you set your convergence.  In order to get your rounds to cross above the LoS in AH, the trick is to set your convergence in as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, which is counter-intuitive to most people.

The trajectory of the rounds in AH is about as spot-on as could be compared to RL.  Especially when it comes to the .50's, which I've spent GOBS of time testing.

With wing mounted .50's set your convergence in to 150yds, and your rounds will be flying at around 5 feet ABOVE the pipper/LoS at 300 yds, 10ft above it at at 600 yds, and won't fall back into line with the pipper/LoS until around 1000yds.

I originally thought as you are (that the rounds would not go above the pipper) but after I figured out the errors I was making during testing I see that they actually do.  The center ring of the dot-target is 20 feet in diameter, so if you hold a steady aim at the center of the ring, and use the center of the pipper as the zero-point I think you'll see what I mean.

The distance the guns are mounted (in feet) is what confuses people about the trajectory patterns in AH.  Everyone is used to the distance a gun is mounted below a scope (in inches), and tries to make comparisons based on that.  It's a matter of scale.  The trajectory is shaped as it should be, it just looks wrong because the scale is so much different.

In order to get the trajectory to appear as we expect it should, HTC would have to model trajectory incorrectly.

With a rifle in RL, sighting-in at 600yds would cause the bullets to arch well above the LoS, while in AH doing so would cause the trajectory to remain below the LoS, which is correct. 



  I stand corrected sir!   I forgot about wing mounted guns doing that!  I tend to fly central mounted guns.  I should have  stated that as I just went through this testing with another player.

   Mostly I was responding to the statement that the highest part or the trajectory is the half way point on convergence.

  Mntman,thx for the more elaborate explanation.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 01:20:57 PM »
If you are a good shot, converge on a point with your 50cals. If you find it hard to hit with precision you might find that staggered will grant you more chance of hitting. That's all I have in the subject.

Ironically, I converge on a point even though I suck at aiming these days too, but I keep the point convergence because when I do hit occasionally it does the job I expect.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM »
P51D

Gun barrel(s) 38" average vertical distance relative to gunsight center level line of sight.

Game testing:
Convergence 300 yards.
385mph TA - holds spinner center leveled to Offline target center or equal to leveled on jacks.

GcTc - Distance on target between gunsight center and target horizontal red line center.
DGc - Bullet impact point relative to the gunsight center.
DTc - Bullet impact point relative to the target horizontal red line center.
Range - Target distance in yards. All other values in Mil.

Range-----GcTc-----DGc-----DTc
50--------(+34)----(-20)----(+15) <---1Mil @ 50yds = 1.7 inches
100------.(+27)----(-10)----(+17) <---1Mil @ 100yds = 3.6 inches
150------.(+25)-----(-5)----(+19) <---1Mil @ 150yds = 5 inches
200------.(+23)-----(-3)----(+20) <---1Mil @ 200yds = 7 inches
250------.(+22)-----(-2)----(+21) <---1Mil @ 250yds = 9 inches
300------.(+21)------(0)----(+22) <---1Mil @ 300yds = 11 inches
350------.(+20)-----(+1)---.(+20) <---1Mil @ 350yds = 12.5 inches
400------.(+20)-----(+1)---.(+20) <---1Mil @ 400yds = 14 inches
450------.(+20)------(0)----.(+20) <---1Mil @ 450yds = 16 inches
500------.(+20)-----(-1)---.-(+19) <---1Mil @ 500yds = 17.5 inches
 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2012, 09:11:32 PM »
My kills have significantly improved after I set them all the same, 400 for me works the best. IMO :salute
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Offline save

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2012, 01:25:50 PM »
With my normal high closure  vs con, I set my 7.7mm in an A5 to 600 and 20mm to 400 , gives them time to start turning after 7.7mm hit to get better defection shots with the 20mm, I never use tracers.
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Offline Noir

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2012, 01:35:39 PM »
not using tracers isn't worth the degraded lethality . It will surprise an unsuspecting 2 weeker, but not much beyond that.
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Offline titanic3

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2012, 02:12:54 PM »
not using tracers isn't worth the degraded lethality . It will surprise an unsuspecting 2 weeker, but not much beyond that.

 :headscratch: They're the same....

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

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Offline Noir

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2012, 06:17:41 AM »
:headscratch: They're the same....

by degraded lethality I meant all the shots missed.

Manurin for example was much more dangerous when he had the tracers on.
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Offline titanic3

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2012, 07:25:55 AM »
by degraded lethality I meant all the shots missed.

Manurin for example was much more dangerous when he had the tracers on.

Ah, I see. From my own experience, no tracers helped my aim at close ranges (under 400) a lot. After two or three sorties, you get a "feel" for the bullet and know where it's going to hit. Whereas with tracers on, I felt like I was handicapping myself because I couldn't resist the urge to "walk" the tracers in, wasting ammo. Just something I can't get used to and it might not only be me, so I encourage others to try both settings on for a few sorties.  :aok However, I still haven't gotten used to the tater's flight path beyond 400. Anything I hit (if I even fired at all) beyond 600 is pure luck or I spent 20+ rounds gauging the trajectory.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Noir

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2012, 07:40:45 AM »
yeah well if you use the tracers to aim your 30mm you're doing it wrong...but with 50cals it's another story IMO
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Convergence: Stagger or Not
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2012, 08:59:32 AM »
If the guys for real thought the "spot" principle best, it's good enough for me.  Single impact point, more damage.  If you are a terrible shot then maybe spread out convergence along with spray and pray works better.

No tracers, single convergence point is the most effective
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