German Bombers

[Tank-Ace]

A Ju-188A-2 would be nice, purely for the extra engine power.

[jag88]

He-177 is old news. Mostly seen carrying guided missiles (which are heavy and draggy) on the outer wings. When it was bombing it wan't as effective as folks on this forum like to pretend.

Let me put it this way.... The B-17 was designed to carry loads up to and exceeding 18,000lbs.


Doesn't mean it did it. 5,000lbs was the standard bomb load.


Might try checking into the actual history of this plane's use. I don't know all of it but I've read some of the Eastern Front use.


It would be a serious abuse of history to include it in the game ahead of ... well.. ANY other plane IMO. Unlike the Me210's undeserved reputation, the He-177 definitely deserved its bad rap.

He-177s bombed London using 2 x SC1800 plus 2 x SC1000, that is 5,6t (12.000lbs+) right there and they could carry up to 7t.  And that is from the early Steinbock raids, when the aircraft still had issues and before the A5 was fielded in numbers.

B-17 might have been designed for 18000lbs, but that was well before they put all those gun turrets on it.

You might want to read for a change about the He-177 instead of repeating common misconceptions...

[Karnak]

B-17 might have been designed for 18000lbs, but that was well before they put all those gun turrets on it.

B-17G's maximum allowed bomb load was 16,000lbs.

[tunnelrat]

B-17G's maximum allowed bomb load was 16,000lbs.

It should be noted that the "maximum" bomb load for B-17s was including external ordnance (assuming they had fittings for it)

And I have seen that listed at 16,000/17,600/and 18,000lbs.

The maximum INTERNAL bomb load was well under 10,000lbs.  (I believe it capped at 8k, but 4k to 5k was a standard bomb load... not sure how accurate those numbers are but they are in the ballpark for sure).

[Karnak]

It should be noted that the "maximum" bomb load for B-17s was including external ordnance (assuming they had fittings for it)

And I have seen that listed at 16,000/17,600/and 18,000lbs.

The maximum INTERNAL bomb load was well under 10,000lbs.  (I believe it capped at 8k, but 4k to 5k was a standard bomb load... not sure how accurate those numbers are but they are in the ballpark for sure).

And?  The implication I was responding to was that the B-17 had that rated load prior to the addition of all the turrets and that it had been reduced to ~6,000lbs by the turrets.

Keep in mind that most German bombers seem to rely on external hard points as well.  Certainly the Ju88, Ju188 and He177 fall into that category.

[tunnelrat]

And?  The implication I was responding to was that the B-17 had that rated load prior to the addition of all the turrets and that it had been reduced to ~6,000lbs by the turrets.

Keep in mind that most German bombers seem to rely on external hard points as well.  Certainly the Ju88, Ju188 and He177 fall into that category.

Oh, please don't misunderstand, I was only clarifying in case someone started losing their minds over how small the B-17 bomb load is in AH compared to the theoretical maximum.

To go tit for tat as far as the HE-177 is concerned would, I believe, put its maximum in-game bomb load somewhere between the B-17 and the Lancaster... but perhaps not necessarily as useful (the # and size of the bombs themselves).

[WING47]

+1 

[Denniss]

To go tit for tat as far as the HE-177 is concerned would, I believe, put its maximum in-game bomb load somewhere between the B-17 and the Lancaster... but perhaps not necessarily as useful (the # and size of the bombs themselves).

4t of bombs at ~2800km range is not that bad , isn't it?
Bombs were 4x 1000kg but they could also use bigger ones (2x 1.7/1.8t)

[RedBull1]

Who needs bombers when you have B38's!

[tunnelrat]

I frequently defer to the officianados on these points. One note with the 177 having engine problems that restricted aspects of its mission. Is this also not true of the P-47M or N?

As for "the Few" wanting to shoot down some Heinkels of ill repute...gotta respect that.

Boo

An enormous portion of the plane/vehicle set in-game had moderate to severe teething trouble and many were plagued with issues throughout.

Since AH doesn't model that, we don't have to worry about it.

Ignore the "I'M SKEERED OF A GERMAN HEAVY BOMBER!!!" crowd.  They are citing trouble the HE-177 had early on, the bird is more qualified than many already in the game.

[Karnak]

An enormous portion of the plane/vehicle set in-game had moderate to severe teething trouble and many were plagued with issues throughout.

Since AH doesn't model that, we don't have to worry about it.

Ignore the "I'M SKEERED OF A GERMAN HEAVY BOMBER!!!" crowd.  They are citing trouble the HE-177 had early on, the bird is more qualified than many already in the game.

To a degree yes, but none of those units dominate the game.  Even the N1K2-J and Ki-84, which had horrid quality control, aren't modeled as wonder weapons like they are in IL-2: Sturmovik.  They use Japanese fuel and the performance resulting from that, not the post war tests on higher octane American fuel that produced much higher performance.

Add the He177 into the game by the numbers and it will utterly dominate the B-17, B-24 and Lancaster, likely becoming the most common bomber by a large margin.

[tunnelrat]

To a degree yes, but none of those units dominate the game.  Even the N1K2-J and Ki-84, which had horrid quality control, aren't modeled as wonder weapons like they are in IL-2: Sturmovik.  They use Japanese fuel and the performance resulting from that, not the post war tests on higher octane American fuel that produced much higher performance.

Add the He177 into the game by the numbers and it will utterly dominate the B-17, B-24 and Lancaster, likely becoming the most common bomber by a large margin.

I agree that if this aircraft was modeled based on it's "best of" paper stats, it would be rather ludicrous.

However, I think that HTC has done a bang up job modeling everything so far... there is no one plane that dominates anywhere...  and I think that if they decide to give us some Grief it'll be great!

[Karnak]

I agree that if this aircraft was modeled based on it's "best of" paper stats, it would be rather ludicrous.

However, I think that HTC has done a bang up job modeling everything so far... there is no one plane that dominates anywhere...  and I think that if they decide to give us some Grief it'll be great!

The only things they could do, if reliability is off the table, is a combination of making it structurally weak, limiting it to lighter bomb loads or perking it.  By the numbers it looks like it would be a ~350mph bomber with a 20mm cannon in the tail and ~13,000lb bomb load.

[icepac]

Been flying it for years.

It does not cause the other bombers to become hangar queens.

That said........



some of you also have experience flying this one since it existed in fighter ace.

[jag88]

And?  The implication I was responding to was that the B-17 had that rated load prior to the addition of all the turrets and that it had been reduced to ~6,000lbs by the turrets.

Keep in mind that most German bombers seem to rely on external hard points as well.  Certainly the Ju88, Ju188 and He177 fall into that category.

What implication?

Krusty affirmed that was the number, I just put in doubt that the initially turret-less B-17 could actually carry that to any useful distance after being encumbered with so many turrets, crewmen and guns.  But, I am pretty sure that if the USAAF could have loaded more bombs into the B-17 and still fly high and far they would have.

Btw, I never mentioned 6000lbs, get your facts straight.

The He-177 carried only the bulky SC2500 and missiles externally since it was quite capable of carrying its full 7t load internally, which is more than 15000lbs.

Now I see why some people are worried about the Greif taking the place of their preferred rides, but the truth is that the He-177 isnt as good as they fear.  I have to dig some data up, but Ill post it as soon as I can.

But no, the Greif wont be doing 350mph loaded, not even close. 

And the 20mm has miserable angles.