A question on the P38 guns...

[Ack-Ack]

But they would have had to import 20mm guns from the UK as the home-made Hispano copies were really bad (unreliable, jamming).

*sigh*


ack-ack

[bustr]

Were the M2 american rounds greased to aleviate the jamming in the P38 like those used by the NAVY?

[WING47]

Was just wondering why is it that the P38s nose mounted 50cals fire one at a time as opposed to simultaneously or more likely alternately (i.e. 1 & 3 fire and then 2 & 4 fire, like a pony's do).

I'm sure HTC's mimicking reality, but I'm curious as to why the manufacturer would limit the aircraft lethality that way? I mean it'd sure be way more lethal if it was spouting out twice as much lead in the same time. Heating/ventilation issues? Stability problems? What?

Also, I am not sure but I seem to recall some variant had 6 or 8 50 cals installed instead of the 20mm. Is that accurate, and was it a common enough configuration? Might have avoided any need for different convergences if all the guns were of the same variety.

And finally, also why are all 4 the 50cals of varying lengths? Just so they could all be accommodated in the nose cone or some other aerodynamic reason?

Enquiring cadets would like to know!

  Hazardus

They are that way so you get a consistent flow of fire from the guns. This increases the likely hood of hitting a target in a deflection shot.

[titanic3]

No, a better version would have been four 20MM cannons with 200-225 rounds each. A C hog, with no convergence to deal with.

The parts were available to create an incredible performer out of the P-38, even better than the best version built. The G series V-1710 Allison was a "bolt in" swap. Combined with the "K" model (Hamilton Standard high activity paddle props) conversion that Lockheed did about 9 months before the G series engines were built, it would have produced a true monster. A P-38 with as much as 4500HP driving two Hamilton Standard 13 foot diameter 4 blade props would have been a real climber. Throw in the four 20MM cannons and you'd have a serious ride. You'd just have to be damned careful about not getting into compression, because it could have been easily done in level flight. Imagine this P-38 http://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm taken to the next level, the G series engines with 2250HP http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0323.html (almost 400HP each more than the F-15 Allisons in the P-38K) with 4 blade Hamilton Standard props. A seriously sexy beast for a P-38 fan.

Wow. 

[Ruah]

now there is a perk plane!

[Butcher]

In April 1942 a copy of the British Mk.II was sent to the U.S. for comparison, the British version used a slightly shorter chamber and did not have the same problems as the U.S. version of the cannon.[9] The U.S. declined to modify the chamber of their version, but nonetheless made other modifications to create the unreliable M2. By late 1942 the USAAC had 40 million rounds of ammunition stored but the guns remained unsuitable. The U.S. Navy had been trying to go all-cannon throughout the war but the conversion never occurred. As late as December 1945 the Army's Chief of Ordnance was still attempting to complete additional changes to the design to allow it to enter service.[9] Some variations of the 20 mm guns used on the Lockheed P-38 Lightning aircraft were produced by International Harvester.[10]

Wow that sucks, would of been nice to see 20mm cannons on the navy birds, but I understand A) gun was unreliable and B) wasn't entirely needed at the time.

[Butcher]

The plane, now designated the P-38K-1-LO was flown to Elgin Field for evaluation by the USAAF. Flown against the P-51B and the P-47D, this Lightning proved to be vastly superior to both in every category of measured performance. What astounded the evaluation team was the incredible rate of climb demonstrated by the P-38K. From a standing start on the runway, the aircraft could take off and climb to 20,000 feet in 5 minutes flat! The "K", fully loaded, had an initial rate of climb of 4,800 fpm in Military Power. In War Emergency Power, over 5,000 fpm was predicted.

In light of this incredible level of performance, you would certainly expect that the Government would be falling all over themselves to quickly get the P-38K into production. Yet, this was not the case. The War Production Board was unwilling to allow a short production suspension in order to get new tooling on line for the required change to the engine cowling. Even when Lockheed promised that the stoppage would only be for 2 or 3 weeks, their request was turned down.

The true consequences of this pig-headed thinking will never be known. What would have been the impact of such a high performance fighter arriving in force to the forward combat areas in mid 1943? How many lost fighter pilots would have survived thanks to the awe inspiring performance of the P-38K? Again, we can never know these things. What we do know, is that due to bureaucratic myopia, neither the P-38K nor a Merlin powered Lightning ever really had a chance to make an impact upon the air war. For all those pilots who died at the controls of lesser aircraft, the War Production Board bears a measure of responsibility for their fate.


damn I want the P-38K now

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Now imagine development continuing from April 1943 on based not on the J model, but rather on the K model. Four blade propellers would have become standard (owing to standardization of production), again improving performance.

For the most part, development of the P-38 really halted in 1943, other than detail work. Serious attempts to improve the airframe and the engines almost completely ceased. Time and resources were wasted on various "related" projects instead.

Of course, the biggest reason Lockheed couldn't halt production long enough to introduce the K model was that 1/2 the Burbank plant was building B-17 bombers, as much to replace losses due to unescorted bombing missions as any other reason. While Consolidated Vultee of Nashville TN struggled for 2-3 years to produce a paltry 113 P-38 fighters. Probably because Boeing was not happy with the idea of allowing Consolidated to build a Boeing aircraft.

If you read this : http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html you'll see that other detail improvements were not made for much the same reasons.

Those two articles were written by Widewing, and Dr Carlos Kopp, with help from two P-38 pilots, Captain Stan Richardson Jr., and Captain Arthur Heiden, both of whom I swapped hundreds of emails with. Of particular interest in Dr. Kopp's article is a statement about climb rate and combat radius with regard to combat effectiveness by Art Heiden. Now consider again the P-38K in that regard. Consider also the effect of the power and propeller efficiency on acceleration and the ability to retain speed and energy.

To steal a line from Rod Steiger, imagine if you will, the P-38L based not on the P-38J, but rather on the P-38K, as it should have been. And then consider what it would have meant if Lockheed Burbank were using both halves of the plant capacity to produce the P-38, instead of half the plant producing the B-17, which, in late 43 and all of 44 was as much bait for the fighters over Europe as it was anything else. What you'd end up with would be around 10K P-38L fighters with a top speed of around 450MPH at 26K feet, around 4K fpm sustained rate of climb, and a 20% combat radius cushion.

[Widewing]

The plane, now designated the P-38K-1-LO was flown to Elgin Field for evaluation by the USAAF. Flown against the P-51B and the P-47D, this Lightning proved to be vastly superior to both in every category of measured performance. What astounded the evaluation team was the incredible rate of climb demonstrated by the P-38K. From a standing start on the runway, the aircraft could take off and climb to 20,000 feet in 5 minutes flat! The "K", fully loaded, had an initial rate of climb of 4,800 fpm in Military Power. In War Emergency Power, over 5,000 fpm was predicted.

In light of this incredible level of performance, you would certainly expect that the Government would be falling all over themselves to quickly get the P-38K into production. Yet, this was not the case. The War Production Board was unwilling to allow a short production suspension in order to get new tooling on line for the required change to the engine cowling. Even when Lockheed promised that the stoppage would only be for 2 or 3 weeks, their request was turned down.

The true consequences of this pig-headed thinking will never be known. What would have been the impact of such a high performance fighter arriving in force to the forward combat areas in mid 1943? How many lost fighter pilots would have survived thanks to the awe inspiring performance of the P-38K? Again, we can never know these things. What we do know, is that due to bureaucratic myopia, neither the P-38K nor a Merlin powered Lightning ever really had a chance to make an impact upon the air war. For all those pilots who died at the controls of lesser aircraft, the War Production Board bears a measure of responsibility for their fate.


damn I want the P-38K now

Hey, I remember when I wrote that piece in the late 90s.... Based upon documents provided by Warren Bodie....

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Hey, I remember when I wrote that piece in the late 90s.... Based upon documents provided by Warren Bodie....

Damned shame what they did to your website, too. What a waste.

[Butcher]

Hey, I remember when I wrote that piece in the late 90s.... Based upon documents provided by Warren Bodie....

Wonderful job you did, man I wish I could know 10% of what you know, i'd feel better

Recommend any books?

[Drano]

To steal a line from Rod Steiger, imagine if you will,

Wrong Rod. Think that was Rod Serling. Not to be confused with "submitted for your perusal", another Rod Serling.

Now Rod Steiger might have said something like--"ye Savvy"  or "I'm talkin about workin for a living! I'm talkin about Sharking!"

 

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Wrong Rod. Think that was Rod Serling. Not to be confused with "submitted for your perusal", another Rod Serling.

Now Rod Steiger might have said something like--"ye Savvy"  or "I'm talkin about workin for a living! I'm talkin about Sharking!"

 

Damn, you're right.  

Steiger's best line has to be his line from "The Longest Day".

Hey! Who let Drano in SAPP? There goes the neighborhood.

[Shuffler]

Damn, you're right.  

Steiger's best line has to be his line from "The Longest Day".

Hey! Who let Drano in SAPP? There goes the neighborhood.

 

[JVboob]

i forgot where i read it but. i read about a merlin XX powered lightning 5,000+ climb rate and 460 straight n level flight at alt. out climbed out ran and out ranged any american fighter. 2 were built 1 compressed the other was scrapped when they were told NO you cant make it.

I dont know how true that was tho