Author Topic: AI GV's  (Read 1281 times)

Offline Tilt

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AI GV's
« on: June 24, 2012, 11:21:26 AM »
Please........... 

It seems to me that AI GV's would make a massive difference to arenas like AvA.

An AI GV war could be set to run in virtual stalemate with missions alternating such that gv's arrive in conflict at a battle field (think like Kursk). Players now interact over and on this battle field to change the balance of the battle.

This may happen in many ways....I suppose it starts with ground attack AC taking out enemy GV assets...then air superiority would be required for attack ac to operate over the battle field............ then fighters are required to achieve this......none of the air borne stuff would be AI it would be players............. however players could also add their weight to the ground war by taking out enemy gv's and disturbing the balance of the battle.

Setting and timing missions would require an element of skill borne of establishing the best criteria in terms of the opposing mission set ups......but all this starts with AI GV's and develops from there.

BY using a ground war as the AI base we can generate "consequences" such that fronts can move and targets can be captured/lost and eventually wars won/lost....players contributing to this victory as they would in the MA.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Tracerfi

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 12:28:09 PM »
I dont understand your idea  :cry
You cannot beat savages by becoming one.

He who must not be named

Offline 715

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 12:47:45 PM »
I don't quite understand either.  Are you asking for the 20-25% of AHers who play in GVs to be replaced by AI?

Offline Tracerfi

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 12:51:56 PM »
He says yes
You cannot beat savages by becoming one.

He who must not be named

Offline oakranger

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 01:35:51 PM »
It would be better to have AIs in FSO. 
Oaktree

56th Fighter group

Offline icepac

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 01:53:35 PM »
I have yet to see a pilot good enough to counter "drifting off lazily to the left".

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 07:06:01 PM »
AI would need a MASSIVE rework for this to be even remotely feasable. Far more than in aircraft, position and terrain are often deciding factors in a GV fight.

They would have to recognize good cover, likely approach routes based purely on visual appearance of terrain from just their position (if they have knowledge of terrain superior to that of even the most seasoned tanker, they would be TOO smart, even if they were so dumb as to reverse out of cover and start driving around in circles when an aircraft came within 6k), think tactically and strategically in an agressive but intelligent manner if they are to represent the Germans (they could just swarm forward like lemmings and fire randomly at the German panzerklein to represent the russians  ;)). But above all, they would need to shoot both accurately and imperfectly.

The biggest obstacle is that they would need to THINK, not just perfectly and correctly analyze the situation based on perfectly accurate information, and then coldly and logically formulate a course of action to most effectively counter the enemy's action. They would need to be susceptible to human emotions, over-analyzation, and errors in judgment.
 
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Tracerfi

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 07:11:32 PM »
AI would need a MASSIVE rework for this to be even remotely feasable. Far more than in aircraft, position and terrain are often deciding factors in a GV fight.

They would have to recognize good cover, likely approach routes based purely on visual appearance of terrain from just their position (if they have knowledge of terrain superior to that of even the most seasoned tanker, they would be TOO smart, even if they were so dumb as to reverse out of cover and start driving around in circles when an aircraft came within 6k), think tactically and strategically in an agressive but intelligent manner if they are to represent the Germans (they could just swarm forward like lemmings and fire randomly at the German panzerklein to represent the russians  ;)). But above all, they would need to shoot both accurately and imperfectly.

The biggest obstacle is that they would need to THINK, not just perfectly and correctly analyze the situation based on perfectly accurate information, and then coldly and logically formulate a course of action to most effectively counter the enemy's action. They would need to be susceptible to human emotions, over-analyzation, and errors in judgment.
 
in other words I Robot
You cannot beat savages by becoming one.

He who must not be named

Offline Butcher

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 07:26:42 PM »
Doubtful AI for GV's could be accomplished, we have to many trees, hills, areas you can't get too.

It can be done with aircraft and the AI, however ground vehicles I don't see it happening any time soon. Far to much work involved, especially coding the AI.

AI's run on a given script, whether to attack or defend they cannot react to changes in an environment - rather only be scripted to make changes - i.e lose a platoon it draws replacements from other areas etc.

The work involved, I dont think so not any time soon.

HTC does not have the resources, as it would take away from the next 30 projects just to draw up the plans and ideas.
JG 52

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 10:54:00 PM »
in other words I Robot

Yes, I-robot is what we need at minimum. However, really this will never be a workable idea, if we want the ai tanks to be capable of more than just holding in place to be destroyed by long-range sniper fire by panthers or Tiger II's, or to swarm forward like a horde of moderately pissed off lemmings. At least not in HiTech's life time.


The issue is that untill we create an AI program that spaces out when it's supposed to be covering a flank, experiences mental fatigue, gets bored and starts being perfunctory in its scan for enemy vehicles, gets excited, suddenly becomes suspicious, etc, then it's either going to be far, far, FAR superior to even the best player (because it will be operating with perfect thinking all the time, with perfect information on enemy positions, etc).

That or it's going to be several orders of magnitude more stupid than even a bad-mediocre player (because it's going to be limited in its thinking and vigilance by the program).



Basically, untill we create AI as in actual intelligence, ambushes will have either a 100% success rate, or they will have a 0% success rate.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline guncrasher

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 11:17:57 PM »
will the ai tanks claim on 200 that the other side are nothing but campers and noobs?


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline titanic3

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 11:22:05 PM »
I wouldn't mind having a few AI GVs in town just patrolling the streets. Should be a simple code right?

1. Follow the paths/streets.
2. End of street, turn around and repeat.
3. Tank within line of sight gets shot at.
4. Troops within line of sight gets shot at.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Butcher

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 11:48:43 PM »
I wouldn't mind having a few AI GVs in town just patrolling the streets. Should be a simple code right?

1. Follow the paths/streets.
2. End of street, turn around and repeat.
3. Tank within line of sight gets shot at.
4. Troops within line of sight gets shot at.

I helped work on a game while back quite close to Close Combat that never got developed, one of the ideas that was implimented was the map was "Scanned" For movable paths, all walls/buildings/trees were marked with a "indestructible" tag - this way the tanks could target buildings, however were not allowed to drive over them - in a sense if it got to a brick wall (a building) it would simply turn and move around it. In theory it worked fine, the Tanks were able to move on their own, now the problem was trying to add basic rules like keeping the front of a tank towards the enemy - didn't always work (50% of time)

the Ai did have some logic to it, for example it would use a variable path drummed up, it would never take the same path once, orders were also not hard to impliment, meaning 1 tank could be attached to a platoon or it would roam separate.

All said and done it still came up far to short as far as the AI was concerned, much as we poured script after script into it, it would still try to attack a Tiger from the front with an M4(75) by itself, even when it did group up tanks to attack it the Tiger was in "defensive" mode in which it would be sitting some 4-800yards away from everything and simply pick off an entire platoon of tanks that tried to rush it.

Whole goal was to focus strictly on ground warfare in a game thats not even 4000 yards long by 4000 yards, you had basic orders like attack, defend, advance and retreat.

Honestly best option is what Titanic said, and add basic tanks in a town setting (where the roads are free to roam and not further) this would be a major addition, I would say they could work on the "Spawn" principle where every 45 minutes 2 tanks spawn for a max of 6? Depending on the countries ENY would factor in the type of tank it gets, whether T34/85 or M4(76). I have absolutely no idea if this can be done, or scripts added for it I am assuming it can considering there already is an AI built in for aircraft.

I helped work on the scripts for the game but it was pretty much out of my league, I have seen recent advances in AI scripting in the past 2-3 years enough I do believe it can be done, one game I play all the time called War in the Pacific AE has some pretty awesome script designs.
The Ai has a time frame when it can execute scripts based on Time and troops available, if a criteria isn't met then it simply cannot run the script. Basically scripts like "Attack Port Moresby" Date start 420501 Date End 420801. Naval Support would be TF 1 or the KB, Airborne could be used or Rear Guards (japanese elite ground combat units).

Mission type: Surface Combat w/ Assault, Sze would be #2 Large - Response type would be Maximum, Trigger base Port Moresby, forward base is Rubaul.

Basically this tells the AI its ok to use elite units, between 05/42 and 8/42 attempt an assault on Moresby using the KB for carriers and protection and a large surface TF to clear the path.

What does this mean? basically if you know your history between 5/42 and 8/42 the japanese AI will make an attempt on it - same for midway etc.

This being said I can see Surface Task forces being made AI as they simply travel to the nearest base to "bombard" and retreat or engage warships.
If a real player occupies a cruisers 8 inch gunner then its disabled for the AI, however its able to act as a task force and do simple tasks.
 
JG 52

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 11:20:19 AM »
The issue with a system similar to Titanic's is that a simple LOS detection system would be inherently flawed in Aces High. How far out will it see a tank coming with 100% reliability? Will the detection be directional, determined by the direction the commander is facing? Will detection be a simple RNG that randomly decides if a tank is detected or not, or will it be based on the percentage of the vehicle that is visible to the drone's commander? Will drones in one side of town respond to gunfire on the other?


A lot more has to go in to it, unless we're content with having nothing more than mobile auto-ack that ignores aircraft. Hell, it would be about as effective to place a couple of '88s in town, and program them to fire on any tank that gets within 1500 yds or so.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Butcher

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Re: AI GV's
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 11:46:24 AM »
The issue with a system similar to Titanic's is that a simple LOS detection system would be inherently flawed in Aces High. How far out will it see a tank coming with 100% reliability? Will the detection be directional, determined by the direction the commander is facing? Will detection be a simple RNG that randomly decides if a tank is detected or not, or will it be based on the percentage of the vehicle that is visible to the drone's commander? Will drones in one side of town respond to gunfire on the other?


A lot more has to go in to it, unless we're content with having nothing more than mobile auto-ack that ignores aircraft. Hell, it would be about as effective to place a couple of '88s in town, and program them to fire on any tank that gets within 1500 yds or so.

Line of sight isn't that much of a problem, the Ack guns already have an LOS in which they shoot, prime example of this is drive up to a town and hide behind a hedgegrow, then drive out in the LOS range, 1-2 seconds the ack gun starts firing then back up - it stops.

Tanks would work on the same principle, however ack guns have a range of 6k over a base? Ground vehicles would have to be decreased to so many yards and a line of sight. Otherwise they will simply start shooting at tanks spawning in if there's a LOS.
JG 52