Author Topic: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234  (Read 17087 times)

Offline perdue3

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2012, 10:35:56 AM »
I like the Arado. Love it actually. The designers really knew what they were doing! But I have a few problems with it as it is.

1) The Arado never had rear facing cannons. I fly this plane. I fly it without the cannons. It doesnt need them.


Then how do you kill 262's?
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Offline lyric1

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 12:07:25 PM by lyric1 »

Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2012, 03:39:30 PM »


It seems obvious to me that the guns had to point back along the flight path in order for the periscope to target the bandit instead of being angled down where the bandit is masked by the fuselage.

Found this ME-110 document with it's static test firing results with a periscope & rear firing guns it is 32 pages long & in German.

So I am just going to show the high lights.

I have not translated all of the text in this document as there is a lot. If I am wrong on any of this let me know & if you can read German I will forward the entire copy to who ever wants it.

Front cover.


One of the photos taken of the rear guns.


Horizontal firing elevation.


Measurements off of the centerline of aircraft to the periscope & guns. Periscope then to rear firing guns.
From the horizontal guns to bullet trajectory.


Another graph showing the same information.


This caught me by surprise :headscratch: Mounted horizontal guns firing in a 239.3cm arc or 94.2 inches back to 400M.
Then at a range of 650 meters they fall back to the line of sight of 0 of the periscope.

Where have I seen this before?



The test firings I did with the AHII AR-234 & the above image was at 500 yards.

So based off of the 110 results it looks like the Arado guns are programmed correctly to shoot up & back & now that we can see that the periscope on the Arado had adjustment knobs as well to change the angle of the RF2C periscope.
They could adjust accordingly for targeting.

Still why is there reports from the Allies who looked at the captured AR-234's & said the guns were facing down :headscratch:

Looking at the 110 a little closer may have the answers?

First off why do the bullets arc upwards from a horizontal firing position?

This type of gun & bullet ballistics characteristics,turbulence from the wake of the aircraft?

Frankly I have no idea? Some one with better knowledge on this will have to chime in here.

They could not angle the 110 guns upwards in their mounts as it would just about shoot it's own tail off when fired.



So is it just possible that the downward facing guns of the Arado is correct? Arado blueprints indicate that they did.
Captured aircraft reports say they did.

But why?

May be the 20mm ballistics arced so high on the horizontal that they were useless. Maybe the danger of shooting of it's own tail? 
With a little down angle however to begin with this might have helped with the arc?

The upward pattern certainly would have helped with visibility through the periscope since the aircraft would not obscure the view as much.

All speculation on my part at this point.

 :headscratch: Would be nice though to have the static firing results on the AR-234B.
There is only a brief bit on the C model static tests that I could find.

 


Offline perdue3

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2012, 04:04:57 PM »
If you remove rear 20mms, this is no longer possible:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lxaltv6x3h2wzbl
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Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2012, 04:37:59 PM »
If you remove rear 20mms, this is no longer possible:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lxaltv6x3h2wzbl
Yep should send Tracers this link. :D

Offline FLS

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #125 on: July 13, 2012, 07:35:01 PM »
Lyric the shells go where the gun is pointed. If the guns shoot up 1.6 inches at 15 ft they don't need to be angled up very much and won't hit the tail.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #126 on: July 13, 2012, 07:40:58 PM »
Lyric the shells go where the gun is pointed. If the guns shoot up 1.6 inches at 15 ft they don't need to be angled up very much and won't hit the tail.

That is not what the document states.

Mündungswaagerechte = horizontal plane

Offline FLS

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2012, 07:54:24 PM »
That is the horizontal plane and it's from the trajectory you posted.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2012, 08:06:54 PM »
That is the horizontal plane and it's from the trajectory you posted.
AH.

Wish I could read German to see what all else this document says.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:23:35 PM by lyric1 »

Offline Denniss

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2012, 01:39:48 PM »
The manual contains instructions to adjust and maintain the guns and sights/periscope.
The guns are set to Visierschuss at 650m because that's the range they assumed an enemy aircraft to be trying to shoot the Bf 110 down.

BTW the document only talks about an installation in a Bf 110F Aufklärer (recon). Guns are set to fire straight rearwards with the noted trajectory upwards.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2012, 03:09:51 PM »
The manual contains instructions to adjust and maintain the guns and sights/periscope.
The guns are set to Visierschuss at 650m because that's the range they assumed an enemy aircraft to be trying to shoot the Bf 110 down.

BTW the document only talks about an installation in a Bf 110F Aufklärer (recon). Guns are set to fire straight rearwards with the noted trajectory upwards.
You have that 110 document as well?

Offline Denniss

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2012, 04:45:05 PM »
You have that 110 document as well?
Yep, and multiple other docs.

Offline viking73

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2012, 02:08:33 AM »
Per Lyric's data it never actually had them, just the technical ability to have them.

Re-read what it says. "FEW had them". Doesn't say none or never installed. If you get picky with that then there's a lot in AH2 that takes some attributes.

I've played AH since AH1 came out. The Ar234 DID have a working periscope when it first came out. It's function was later taken out.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2012, 06:18:54 AM »
I've played AH since AH1 came out. The Ar234 DID have a working periscope when it first came out. It's function was later taken out.


The periscope never worked in AH. The Arado 234 didn't even have the guns enabled when it first came out, because HTC was not able to get the periscope view working. They later just enabled the guns and dropped the idea of making the periscope work.

Originally, we were going to have the periscope work, but I had a lot of trouble getting it to work.  So we ditched it.  However, it may turn up one of these days.

It's supposed to have the to fixed 20mm's, but we had a problem with the periscope not clipping correctly with the 3d model.  I don't know if or when the cannons may be enabled.

No there isn't aside from an external view.  The guns were originally planned but we ran into problems with the periscope view and shelved it for awhile.  We still haven't had time to work on that, but people have been wanting it so I went ahead and enabled the guns.
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Offline lyric1

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Re: Remove the fantasy - Ar-234
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2012, 10:17:36 AM »
Re-read what it says. "FEW had them". Doesn't say none or never installed.

You did not read all that I posted then.
Nearly all documents after a certain time frame do say doesn't never installed & so on.
I pointed this out that later authors did a complete 180 from their first publications with their very own same titled books in later editions.