Author Topic: Efficacy of .303's  (Read 7300 times)

Offline danny76

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Efficacy of .303's
« on: July 10, 2012, 08:46:04 AM »
http://www.4shared.com/file/hZ3PJGvX/109_kill_1800.html?refurl=d1url

Now I fired 110 rounds of .303 once in one session at Wrekin Range some years ago, I was black and blue. These things carry some serious power.

174 grain projectile (11.275g) 8 guns, each firing 1150 rnds per minute is 153 rounds per second. The rounds were traveling 2660 ft per second at the muzzle.

Bearing in mind I know that many would miss however my guns were calibrated to 375, so judging by the 400yds indicated most would hit together. And there were a couple of good second long strikes. That's almost 2kg of lead and copper traveling 1814mph hitting the 109 each second. There were strikes over his cockpit, control surfaces etc. Surely this would have resulted in the enemy being in several parts rather than pootling off home with oil and fuel strikes?
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Offline Noir

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 08:52:03 AM »
I'm not expert but 303's loose a lot of power after 200 yards
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Offline danny76

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
I'm not expert but 303's loose a lot of power after 200 yards

They would penetrate both side of a Krupp German steel helmet and the head in between at 600+

Effective out to 1000yds fatal at 2 miles
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 09:03:16 AM »
How far are the rounds really traveling with both planes going more than 300 mph?

Offline Fish42

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 09:04:06 AM »
I find 303s to be fine, 3+ kills in a hurri 1 shortie is not uncommon. you have to get in tight and fire <300, also aim for the same spot as best you can. no point hosing them with 303s all over.

Dont forget there was a reason the brits upgraded the Hurris and spits to have 20mms. Many times eny plane would fly home after a british fighter had given them the whole 7 yards.

Offline Gman

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 09:18:53 AM »
Another point is that if you have even half of your bullets striking the target you are doing amazingly well.  You can't just calculate the weight of rounds impacting by multiplying rof by the number of guns and say that this is the damage that will be done.

Also, the 303 was among the weakest of the main battle rifle calibers used by any army during the war.  The op's experience of thinking of it as incredibly powerful is likely due to lack of experience with other types.

There is also ample source material around regarding the ineffectiveness of the 303 during the Bob, particularly against bombers, which are much easier to put concentrated fire on than a maneuvering fighter.

Offline surfinn

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 09:18:53 AM »
My squaddies and I did a lot of work with the hurri and spit one preparing for a fso mission against 109Es. We found that cockpit and fuselage hits were very ineffective unless you were shooting at a 90 degree angle to the enemy cockpit. However at d200 wing shots were highly effective. It would rip their wings of with a relatively short burst. We wouldn't fire until the ac was 300 or closer with a preferred range of d200.  :salute Hope that helps

Offline danny76

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 09:20:10 AM »
How far are the rounds really traveling with both planes going more than 300 mph?

erm. about 400 yds :bhead
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Offline danny76

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 09:26:29 AM »
Another point is that if you have even half of your bullets striking the target you are doing amazingly well.  You can't just calculate the weight of rounds impacting by multiplying rof by the number of guns and say that this is the damage that will be done.

Also, the 303 was among the weakest of the main battle rifle calibers used by any army during the war.  The op's experience of thinking of it as incredibly powerful is likely due to lack of experience with other types.

There is also ample source material around regarding the ineffectiveness of the 303 during the Bob, particularly against bombers, which are much easier to put concentrated fire on than a maneuvering fighter.

Well in my limited experience of L1A1, Bren 7.62, FN GPMG, Sig Sauer P226/P228's, Browning Hi Power, L81-A1, L85 A1 and A2, L86-A1, M240, Browning .50. and the 30mm L21 Rarden....

I fired the L42 sniper version of the No4 Mk1 in 7.62 and found the recoil considerably less than the .303

« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 09:28:15 AM by danny76 »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 09:27:50 AM »
Butcher
22:35:11 Departed from Field #16 in a Hurricane Mk I
23:19:20 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by CASHEW.
23:22:04 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by Jenks.
23:22:34 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by JVZilla.
23:22:54 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by tym2kill.
23:23:21 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by BushLt.
23:28:27 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #15.
23:39:33 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by tuk151.
23:39:39 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by 68WydWyt.
23:50:26 Shot down a Bf 110C-4b flown by Blackboy.
00:01:04 Shot down a Bf 110C-4b flown by Badmood.
00:04:14 Helps BudGray shoot down Sleepdet.
00:08:12 Arrived Safely at Field #45

Didn't have a problem shooting down 9 with 303s, get closer then 200 and the 303s are simply devastating.
JG 52

Offline danny76

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 09:29:22 AM »
Butcher
22:35:11 Departed from Field #16 in a Hurricane Mk I
23:19:20 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by CASHEW.
23:22:04 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by Jenks.
23:22:34 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by JVZilla.
23:22:54 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by tym2kill.
23:23:21 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by BushLt.
23:28:27 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #15.
23:39:33 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by tuk151.
23:39:39 Shot down a Bf 109E-4 flown by 68WydWyt.
23:50:26 Shot down a Bf 110C-4b flown by Blackboy.
00:01:04 Shot down a Bf 110C-4b flown by Badmood.
00:04:14 Helps BudGray shoot down Sleepdet.
00:08:12 Arrived Safely at Field #45

Didn't have a problem shooting down 9 with 303s, get closer then 200 and the 303s are simply devastating.


 :salute Nice work Sir. I was however simply using the film as a case in point and judging by the numbers of hits he should have gone down IMHO
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 09:37:20 AM »
:salute Nice work Sir. I was however simply using the film as a case in point and judging by the numbers of hits he should have gone down IMHO

It really comes down to how armored the aircraft is, whats the range? did it have any damage already? I ran a few scenarios before the FSO and found out putting the guns at 200 and shooting point blank was effective enough to take a wing/tail off an aircraft in under 200 rounds.

Thus being said, this was the perfect aiming day, where the moon was aligned and the sun was bright, water was blue.

Pure luck, but it goes to show the damage is there - I once sat behind an LA7 and put 2/3rds of my ammo into his tail and nothing, flew away like nothing.
JG 52

Offline ImADot

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 09:38:09 AM »
Bearing in mind I know that many would miss however my guns were calibrated to 375, so judging by the 400yds indicated most would hit together.

This is why Late War regulars complain when FSO or other special events use Mk1 Early War equip that use .303's. They think the guns are crap, when in reality they have their convergence set way out, as if they are still flying their LW birds with .50 cal guns. They spray bullets at d400+ and wonder why they can't hurt the bad guys.

Convergence past 275 is useless for .303's and firing past d300 is futile.
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Offline Noir

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 09:53:04 AM »
I've watched the film, it is a nice shot, but at that distance, in AH you need a much more localized shot. I have no idea about real life tho.
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Offline danny76

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Re: Efficacy of .303's
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 10:00:23 AM »
This is why Late War regulars complain when FSO or other special events use Mk1 Early War equip that use .303's. They think the guns are crap, when in reality they have their convergence set way out, as if they are still flying their LW birds with .50 cal guns. They spray bullets at d400+ and wonder why they can't hurt the bad guys.

Convergence past 275 is useless for .303's and firing past d300 is futile.

The British Army used .303's from WW1 through to Korea and Malaya. The No4 Mk1 and SMLE rifles are recognised as phenomenally accurate and with strong hitting power, the Vickers .303 was a feared area weapon and the Lewis an excellent Light support Weapon. There is no doubt that the .303 was inadequate in terms of aerial combat, nevertheless if it would punch holes in 1/4 inch thick hardened steel helmets at range, it would shred aluminium skinned airframes, their control cables, fuel tanks, coolant tanks and the organic lump of hair and skin driving it. The film clearly shows impacts playing over the wings nose fuselage and control surfaces. I just feel that the community is entrenched in the notion that the rounds were weak. if they hit something they were going to damage it, if 153 a second hit something they are going to destroy it.

The point about convergence is, that the rounds had not run out of steam by 200 yards, or 400 yards, in truth they were almost certainly still in the acceleration phase at 200 yards. If they are calibrated to converge at 375 yards then you have a heavy cone of bullets striking in a relatively condensed pattern at that range. They certainly don't run out of impetus and drop to earth over such small distances as 300yds
"You kill 'em all, I'll eat the BATCO!"
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