Efficacy of .303's

[bustr]

Tony Williams coverd this in his article:

The Development of RAF Guns and Ammunition from World War 1 to the Present Day

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/RAF%20guns.htm
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WW2 .303 Air Combat rounds.


Sectioned .303" rounds, from the left: tracer, armour-piercing and B Mk VI incendiary (Dixon/De Wilde)

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British and German WW2 Air Combat rounds.



The three standard wartime RAF rounds: .303", .5" and 20 mm Hispano (left), compared with representative German ammunition: 7.92 mm, 13 mm MG 131, 15 mm MG 151,    20 mm (MG-FF) and 20mm MG 151

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General Internal Structure of German Compound Explosive Rounds and why they are effective.



Luftwaffe 20mm MG-FF ammunition: HE-T, Minengeschoss and API

The HE rely's on the shrapnel from it's thick wall. Minengschoss the (hexogen aluminum) is 3x more powerfull than TNT burning at 1000C. Both the HE and Mine fuzes have aluminum, copper or magnesium bodies. API has phosporus contained with an aluminum plug which ruptures on penetration contact.

[Kingpin]

...my guns were calibrated to 375, so judging by the 400yds indicated most would hit together. And there were a couple of good second long strikes. That's almost 2kg of lead and copper traveling 1814mph hitting the 109 each second. There were strikes over his cockpit, control surfaces etc. Surely this would have resulted in the enemy being in several parts rather than pootling off home with oil and fuel strikes?

I recall reading that the British initially set their .303 convergence well out beyond 300 yards (350-360), however based on combat experience, the RAF (or veteran pilots) changed this recommendation to 220-225 yards.  This would suggest that the real-world effectiveness was much greater well inside of 300 yards. [Sorry I can't cite the source off the top of my head as I'm not home with my books ATM, but I am quite certain I've read this.  Perhaps others can corroborate this information.]

I would suggest trying your convergence of .303s at 220-225 as recommended by the RAF pilots of the era.  

I think you will find they are extremely lethal at that range, and are therefore modeled fairly accurately in AH.

<S>

[bustr]

Thats why in my spits I set the .303 to 275 with the 20mm at 300. Snapshots inside of 200 the .303 appere to be the pilot killing golden BB more often than the 20mm. A kill is a kill.

[Ack-Ack]

I recall reading that the British initially set their .303 convergence well out beyond 300 yards (350-360), however based on combat experience, the RAF (or veteran pilots) changed this recommendation to 220-225 yards.  This would suggest that the real-world effectiveness was much greater well inside of 300 yards. [Sorry I can't site the source off the top of my head as I'm not home with my books ATM, but I am quite certain I've read this.  Perhaps others can corroborate this information.]

I would suggest trying your convergence of .303s at 220-225 as recommended by the RAF pilots of the era. 

I think you will find they are extremely lethal at that range, and are therefore modeled fairly accurately in AH.

<S>

IIRC, the "Fighter Area Tactics" used by the RAF at the onset of the war called for convergence to be set at 600-800 yards.

ack-ack

[RTHolmes]

the RAF ring sight is set up so that a 109 at 150yd just fills the circle - that should give us an idea of the best range to open up at

[Noir]

Thats why in my spits I set the .303 to 275 with the 20mm at 300. Snapshots inside of 200 the .303 appere to be the pilot killing golden BB more often than the 20mm. A kill is a kill.

spit1's don't have 20mm's

that said you want all our MG's to be at the same distance, to have the best focused fire possible

[Butcher]

Here's a pair of photos to show just how close I fire when I am in something with 303s (taken from my FSO with 367thdynamitegang)





Sorry for poor quality, these are 2600x1600, last photo counts 20 stukas, managed to bag 4 or so

[bustr]

You are inside of 100 yards becasue the reflector glass is about 200Mil wide and the wings almost fill it.

Do you use TrackIR in 6-axis mode and your head pushed forward or are you useing a 60Mil ring as your Mk2 reticle?

The 100mph ring used by the british depending on how you calculate it is either 100Mil or 120Mil. The gap between the horizontal bar was adjustable for wingspan at distances out to 1.5k yards. The outside of your bar and posts are about 120Mil for the default head position set in the spit and Hurri. The Revi ring as a comparison is 100Mil so at 100m a 10m wingspan fits in it.

About 200 yards a 109 wingspan is 60Mil.

[MK-84]

Tony Williams coverd this in his article:

The Development of RAF Guns and Ammunition from World War 1 to the Present Day

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/RAF%20guns.htm
------------------------------------------------------------

WW2 .303 Air Combat rounds.

(Image removed from quote.)
Sectioned .303" rounds, from the left: tracer, armour-piercing and B Mk VI incendiary (Dixon/De Wilde)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

British and German WW2 Air Combat rounds.

(Image removed from quote.)

The three standard wartime RAF rounds: .303", .5" and 20 mm Hispano (left), compared with representative German ammunition: 7.92 mm, 13 mm MG 131, 15 mm MG 151,    20 mm (MG-FF) and 20mm MG 151

--------------------------------------------------------------------

General Internal Structure of German Compound Explosive Rounds and why they are effective.

(Image removed from quote.)

Luftwaffe 20mm MG-FF ammunition: HE-T, Minengeschoss and API

The HE rely's on the shrapnel from it's thick wall. Minengschoss the (hexogen aluminum) is 3x more powerfull than TNT burning at 1000C. Both the HE and Mine fuzes have aluminum, copper or magnesium bodies. API has phosporus contained with an aluminum plug which ruptures on penetration contact.

Bit of a Hijack, but on the 15mm and 20mm german cannon rounds theres a notch on the shell, what is what for?

[Butcher]

You are inside of 100 yards becasue the reflector glass is about 200Mil wide and the wings almost fill it.

Do you use TrackIR in 6-axis mode and your head pushed forward or are you useing a 60Mil ring as your Mk2 reticle?

The 100mph ring used by the british depending on how you calculate it is either 100Mil or 120Mil. The gap between the horizontal bar was adjustable for wingspan at distances out to 1.5k yards. The outside of your bar and posts are about 120Mil for the default head position set in the spit and Hurri. The Revi ring as a comparison is 100Mil so at 100m a 10m wingspan fits in it.

About 200 yards a 109 wingspan is 60Mil.

I do use TrackIR 5.  I zoomed in on the image while in the cockpit trying to give a better look at how close it was, still hard to even read 0 for the range which was the point.

[fuzeman]

Bit of a Hijack, but on the 15mm and 20mm german cannon rounds theres a notch on the shell, what is what for?

Complete assumption here but that notch looks similar to the notch on the aerator on the kitchen faucet, might be for tightening or turning it.
Now to show just how much of an assumption, I had always thought the projectile was pushed into the shell casing.
How's that. I give an answer and they say why I thinhk my answer is wrong.
I'm such a marOOn.

And don't copmpare real life things with ingame ones. [ this for the replys that reference real life experience.]
I have my Hurricane or Spitfire Mk. I guns at 225.

[Ruah]

causes pilot wounds from 1000 yards out.

[fuzeman]

Complete assumption here but that notch looks similar to the notch on the aerator on the kitchen faucet, might be for tightening or turning it.
Now to show just how much of an assumption, I had always thought the projectile was pushed into the shell casing.
How's that. I give an answer and they say why I thinhk my answer is wrong.
I'm such a marOOn.

And don't copmpare real life things with ingame ones. [ this for the replys that reference real life experience.]
I have my Hurricane or Spitfire Mk. I guns at 225.

Cogitations after the post, maybe its the fuze that gets screwed into the projectile, thusly needing a means of turning it and tightening it.
Heck, I know here fuze gets screwed over regularly.
fication from Clara, here as in home.

[bustr]

Butcher,

A few years back Hitech corrected an issue in the default FoV and pilots perspective eye distance for the gunsights in the game. Consiquently this made building gunsights in 512x512 that 1Mil = 2Pixel. So now you can use the historic gunsights as they were intended for range determination based on what percentage of the con fills the main ring or some structure in the reticle. The range determination rules and lead hold off rules from the British and German gunnery manuals "Bag the Hun" and "Schiessfibel" now work in the game using main rings of 100Mil.

British taught 150 yards, 300 yards and 600 yards while the  Germans, 100m, 300m and 600m as generalised combat distances. With both teaching deflection as percentages or fractions of the main ring. The reason for stadia marks in later Revi reticle.



Your con in that picture is 3x the width of a 60Mil ring. He is inside of 100 yards.

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MK84,

You would be right that the notches are for a tool to set the fuze into the body of the round. fuze bodies were made from Copper, Aluminum and Magnesium.

[Butcher]

Your con in that picture is 3x the width of a 60Mil ring. He is inside of 100 yards.

And? the whole point of my post  about 303s being quite effective.