F6F vs F4U Research

[Oldman731]

Arguably the most critical air battles of the war after Midway were those of the Solomons Campaign, since that's when the IJNAF and IJAAF were chewed to pieces and lost all their veteran pilots. The F4U played if anything a greater role than the F6F in those battles.

Agreed that Guadalcanal was where the great Japanese navy pilots died (the P-38s in New Guinea got the Japanese Army pilots).  The Wildcat was responsible for that, though.  By the time the Corsair appeared in any kind of numbers in the Solomons the critical battles were over.  You might almost say that by the time the Marines deployed F4Us into the Solomons in numbers, they were just in time to rack up easy kills against more-or-less helpless opponents.

Or something like that.

- oldman

[Karnak]

Did Sakai's "one A6M5 vs fifteen F6F Hellcats" fight really happen?

[Ack-Ack]

Agreed that Guadalcanal was where the great Japanese navy pilots died (the P-38s in New Guinea got the Japanese Army pilots).  The Wildcat was responsible for that, though.  By the time the Corsair appeared in any kind of numbers in the Solomons the critical battles were over.  You might almost say that by the time the Marines deployed F4Us into the Solomons in numbers, they were just in time to rack up easy kills against more-or-less helpless opponents.

Or something like that.

- oldman

I think in the early period in the Solomons (1942-1943), it was a mix of Navy Wildcats, USAAF P-40s, P-39s, P-38s and Commonwealth P-40s that broke the backs of the IJN and IJAF.  Remember, those IJN pilots that took part in the Guadalcanal campaign were mostly land based naval squadrons stationed at Rabaul and other satellite bases in New Britain.

[Oldman731]

I think in the early period in the Solomons (1942-1943), it was a mix of Navy Wildcats, USAAF P-40s, P-39s, P-38s and Commonwealth P-40s that broke the backs of the IJN and IJAF.  Remember, those IJN pilots that took part in the Guadalcanal campaign were mostly land based naval squadrons stationed at Rabaul and other satellite bases in New Britain.

Agreed.  I have never come across references to P-40s based on Guadalcanal, though.  Or Australians either, for that matter.

Flying F4Fs (not to mention P-39Ds) against A6M2s in this game makes you appreciate what those guys were up against.

- oldman

[Butcher]

Agreed.  I have never come across references to P-40s based on Guadalcanal, though.  Or Australians either, for that matter.

Flying F4Fs (not to mention P-39Ds) against A6M2s in this game makes you appreciate what those guys were up against.

- oldman

I have quite a few references of P-40s and P-400s at guadalcanal, not sure entirely "who" was stationed there - already ran across one book I have that has to many flaws in the book - i.e confusing P-39D with P-400 was a major pester, but does anyone know
if P-40s were actually stationed at Guadal? Reason I say one book for example took direct interviews from the pilots themselves on one particular mission - coming from James E. Swett also VMF-221 has a few pilots that count P-40s taking off during the early periods.
Although on one mission for example - a flight of 4 P-40s were shot down, but 4x P-400s managed to shoot down a few val dive bombers before getting bounced, this was taken from Swett's comments, he him self dove on the Val's and lost the rest of his flight.

[Crash Orange]

The F4U was first deployed on Guadalcanal in February, 1943, at which time the air war was still very much at issue. Granted that the darkest days were behind, but Japanese air strength was by no means broken at that point.

[Mister Fork]

Did Sakai's "one A6M5 vs fifteen F6F Hellcats" fight really happen?

I have no reference to indicate it didn't happen. Maybe Widewing or Oldman has something on it?

[Letalis]

Did Sakai's "one A6M5 vs fifteen F6F Hellcats" fight really happen?

Sakai's 1v15 is covered in his book Samurai!  Sakai used the fact the Hellcat pilots were "green" and a repeated rolling maneuver (something hard for a F6F to follow) to survive his ordeal.  Despite the fact I've never seen an American corroboration, given Sakai's documented skill and character I am very much inclined to take him at his word.

BreakBreak:  Found the old F6F vs F4U slugfest between Widewing and F4, good stuff indeed:) 

My take so far:
-The F6F was superior in terms of operational attrition (better around the boat) which is in keeping with the known handling characteristics of both aircraft.
-The high end performance away from the boat worked in the F4U's favor at a time when Grumman was able to produce the F8F (obviating need to upgrade the F6F with the R-2800-18W).  In other words this was a contracting issue apart from strict combat performance. 

I'm still having trouble explaining the significant disparity between the F4U's 11-1k/d vs. the F6F's 19-1k/d.  The same standards for recording of a kill were in place for pilots of both aircraft.  This would have been easier to explain away if comparing say, the P-47's performance in the ETO vs the F4U's.  It is known that a greater proportion of F4U sorties were flown from land bases, especially earlier in the war, but still can't find an explanation in the numbers or anywhere else for that matter.  I can buy the notion that the F6F was the better aircraft for the job at hand but that much better?  To accept that is to turn the thesis on its head...   

[Squire]

You also have to look at the question of wartime industry. Grumman and Chance Voight (and Goodyears) factories were all producing the planes at a high tempo and its likely that it was thought that both a/c were good designs and between the USN, USMC, and foreign use (like the Royal Navy) there was ample room and need for both types to be produced in their 1000s. Retooling the factories to produce just one type perhaps was viewed as a needless delay in wartime.

Also the F4U was not cleared for USN CV ops untill 1945...well the USN can't just sit and wait for that while flying Wildcats there is no time for that. They needed a great many new fighters for the Fast Carrier Task Forces in 1943-44 and so the orders went out to Grumman to deliver Hellcats to the USN. By the time the Corsair proved itself from the decks of CVs the USN was already operating many F6Fs. There isn't time in war to sit back and endlessly tinker with things (if it ain't broke don't fix it). The Hellcat was doing very well, it was being built in very large quantities altready and there was little point in discontinuing it. In the meantime the Corsair was being sent to the USMC and the USN as well and making its contribution felt.  

The same can be said for the P-47, P-38 and P-51s of the USAAF. There was a need to produce fighters in the 1000s asap, and so designs that worked were not discontinued. There was no time to sit back and delay industry over what may or not have been the absolute best fighter. If it worked it was produced. Types that were not deemed usefull were either phased out or production or scaled back or sent as Lend-Lease (P-39, P-40, F4F). Gradually some types did start to gain supremacy; the P-51 was eventually starting to becoming the dominant USAAF fighter by late 1944 and had the war continued the F6F would have been eclipsed more than it was by Grummans F8F and F7F designs, and perhaps more Corsairs in naval service but the war abruptly ended in August of 1945.

Botom line re the Corsair and Hellcat they were both needed.

[Oldman731]

Sakai's 1v15 is covered in his book Samurai!  Sakai used the fact the Hellcat pilots were "green" and a repeated rolling maneuver (something hard for a F6F to follow) to survive his ordeal.  Despite the fact I've never seen an American corroboration, given Sakai's documented skill and character I am very much inclined to take him at his word.

I have read US corroboration...somewhere.... although, as you would expect, the Americans didn't see the fight quite the way Sakai did.  Can't recall the source though.

Beware anything with Martin Caiden's name on it.  I think Sakai and Robert Johnson kept him fairly honest, but one should always be skeptical.

- oldman

[Karnak]

I have read US corroboration...somewhere.... although, as you would expect, the Americans didn't see the fight quite the way Sakai did.  Can't recall the source though.

Beware anything with Martin Caiden's name on it.  I think Sakai and Robert Johnson kept him fairly honest, but one should always be skeptical.

- oldman

Do you recall anything about what the American take on it was?

The fact that this wasn't the normal "x side claims 5 kills and side y records 1 loss" as Sakai didn't claim any kills in the fight I always wondered if there was anything else on it out there.

[icepac]

I think Sadaaki Akamatsu also engaged a bunch of enemy planes while alone.

[Oldman731]

Do you recall anything about what the American take on it was?

Regrettably I do not.  I have a vague recollection that it was an entry in the end notes to a book on the Phillippines campaign 1944-45.  Will see if I can find that book.  Guppy and/or Widewing may have a clue on how to get into the fleet records for that period.  The incident occurred June 24, 1944.

- oldman

[JVboob]

this makes me want to do a report on the P38 compairable to the P47 seeing as how both were used in all theaters. 51 didnt arrive in the PTO till late in the war. but the P47 didnt have the numbers in the Pacific like the 38s did...


anyways have you tried to find any pilots of these aircraft to interview?? weather they be combat pilots from the war or just people who have flow them at airshows or restored them?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

this makes me want to do a report on the P38 compairable to the P47 seeing as how both were used in all theaters. 51 didnt arrive in the PTO till late in the war. but the P47 didnt have the numbers in the Pacific like the 38s did...


anyways have you tried to find any pilots of these aircraft to interview?? weather they be combat pilots from the war or just people who have flow them at airshows or restored them?

Most of the pilots who are still around are pushing 90 years of age, and there are very few of them. There are several of us (Guppy, Widewing, myself, and a couple of others) who knew quite a few of them. The odds of getting an interview at this point are extremely slim.