Author Topic: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...  (Read 2833 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2012, 02:01:22 PM »
The sword and shield combination is hard to beat in real-world military application. Medieval and renaissance martial arts are popular in Europe, and I'm led to believe it's gaining in popularity in the US as well.

I think history illustrates that the Japanese sabre was technically superior to the sword and shield combination. Further the curved blade is far better for cutting, look at the mechanics of the stroke.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »
Highly curved slashing blades like the scimitar is practical for use by mounted combatants riding past one another, but the curve of the Katana is not very pronounced and the effect in cutting performance in a practical combat situation is negligible. You will loose your arm just as easily to a longsword as to a Katana. The curved blade is just a side effect of the tempering process. The hardness of the metal in different parts of the blade was controlled by the rate at which various sections were cooled during quenching. Hard steels are made by rapid quenching from high temperature, while softer steels are made to cool less quickly during quenching. To control this cooling rate, layers of clay were used. A very thin layer was painted on what would become the cutting edge, to allow the metal to cool rapidly. A much thicker layer was applied to the heavier body of the blade to slow the cooling rate creating softer, less brittle steel. If the sword survived the cooling process without breaking it ended up with the graceful curve of the Katana.

Thought not very well known, the classic curved Katana was really more common in the Sengoku and Tokugawa eras (late European Renaissance). Previously, there was a wider variety of swords. Some were straight, some not, some a little different, but all were cavalry sabers at heart. Its use as a footman's weapon was mostly confined to duels and decoration. The Samurai much preferred spears, bows, and No-Dachi for actual combat.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »
Highly curved slashing blades like the scimitar is practical for use by mounted combatants riding past one another, but the curve of the Katana is not very pronounced and the effect in cutting performance in a practical combat situation is negligible. You will loose your arm just as easily to a longsword as to a Katana. The curved blade is just a side effect of the tempering process. The hardness of the metal in different parts of the blade was controlled by the rate at which various sections were cooled during quenching. Hard steels are made by rapid quenching from high temperature, while softer steels are made to cool less quickly during quenching. To control this cooling rate, layers of clay were used. A very thin layer was painted on what would become the cutting edge, to allow the metal to cool rapidly. A much thicker layer was applied to the heavier body of the blade to slow the cooling rate creating softer, less brittle steel. If the sword survived the cooling process without breaking it ended up with the graceful curve of the Katana.

Thought not very well known, the classic curved Katana was really more common in the Sengoku and Tokugawa eras (late European Renaissance). Previously, there was a wider variety of swords. Some were straight, some not, some a little different, but all were cavalry sabers at heart. Its use as a footman's weapon was mostly confined to duels and decoration. The Samurai much preferred spears, bows, and No-Dachi for actual combat.


Thank you for your explanation but I already know a good deal about their metallurgy and heat treatment.

The curved blade results in a fundamentally different cut than a straight one. It seems you do not understand this.




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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2012, 03:01:02 PM »
Nonsense. The curvature is quite gentle; if the blade was straightened, the difference in length would amount to much less than 1/10th of an inch, if even that much. Its effect on cutting performance is negligible.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2012, 03:08:37 PM »
Nonsense. The curvature is quite gentle; if the blade was straightened, the difference in length would amount to much less than 1/10th of an inch, if even that much. Its effect on cutting performance is negligible.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with length of the blade but the nature of the stroke, pulling the blade into the belly with the stroke. With a straight sword you cut with a linear stroke and one segment of the blade makes the cut. With a curved sabre the edge is in motion across the cut. This is a significantly different cut.

Watch any basic Iaido video on YouTube and you'll see it if you look for it.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »
The curvature of the Katana is not pronounced enough. You are still only using the tip of the sword to slice with. The factors that contribute to a sword cut have been worked out and turned into quantifyable mathematical principles for a long time now. They're based upon, resistance, POI density, velocity, momentum, cross sections and geometry, to name a few. Leaning into a cut isn't one of them. Most curved swords have so mild a curve, such as a Katana, that the cutting physics is no different to a straight blade.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 03:37:08 PM by GScholz »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2012, 03:43:58 PM »
The curvature of the Katana is not pronounced enough. You are still only using the tip of the sword to slice with. The factors that contribute to a sword cut have been worked out and turned into quantifyable mathematical principles for a long time now. They're based upon, resistance, POI density, velocity, momentum, cross sections and geometry, to name a few. Leaning into a cut isn't one of them. Most curved swords have so mild a curve, such as a Katana, that the cutting physics is no different to a straight blade.

I'm sorry if this comment appears rude, but you really really don't understand what you are talking about.



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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2012, 04:18:17 PM »
Your comment is not only rude, but completely devoid of any value to the discussion. I will not do the same however.

The point or "kissaki" is the most important part of the Katana, or any sword really, even those not designed for thrusting. Invariably when swords are of equal length, most contact is with the final inch or so of the blade. Kissaki come in many types based on shape and size. Some perform better for thrusting, others are better for slicing.




The sword's cutting edge or "Ha" and its support structure the spine are not simply a means of extending its point. While as mentioned earlier, most cuts are made with the final inch or two of the blade, the extension of the cutting edge from point to grip is what separates the sword from its cousin the spear. Against a spear, once inside the arc described by the spear head one is relatively safe. But the edge of a sword blade is a different proposition. The cutting edge is used by drawing the blade across the unfortunate soul who is inside the arc of your sword.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2012, 04:28:07 PM »
You contradict yourself in your own posts. Reading a lot of books and understanding are two different things.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2012, 04:35:15 PM »
Please point out the perceived contradictions and I'll clarify.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2012, 04:48:24 PM »
Please point out the perceived contradictions and I'll clarify.

 :rofl Your condescension matches your arrogance I see. I have a better idea, you continue to read your books and reinforce your opinion of your own expertise. Perhaps one day you will pick up a sword and begin to understand with your hands.


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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2012, 04:53:20 PM »
Yeah, that's what I thought. When you have something positive to add to the discussion feel free to chime in.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2012, 04:55:16 PM »
Yeah, that's what I thought. When you have something positive to add to the discussion feel free to chime in.

There is no discussion here. You already know everything.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2012, 04:58:23 PM »
Well I certainly no not know how "history illustrates that the Japanese sabre was technically superior to the sword and shield combination". If you could elaborate on how history illustrates that it would be a nice start for you to contribute to this thread.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline MarineUS

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Re: @Ink - and other sword enthusiasts...
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2012, 05:00:03 PM »
wow. Very impressive.
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

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