Author Topic: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power  (Read 2913 times)

Offline SIM

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2012, 06:10:47 PM »
CAP, there is a long list of reasons why you don't see tree crews out and about as much as in times past.

My personal experiences cover many different situations, but a lot of those have a common thread......ignorance.

As a company builds in lines, they have to get right-of-way agreements with landowners so that they can cross the properties, whether overhead or underground. Those agreements contain clauses that guarantee the utility access to their equipment and facilities. Most companies have that clause contained in the service agreement customers sign when they apply for service. This has happened for YEARS. In some municipalities, the city may have right-of-way already set so the utility can build within that area without having to get one of their own.

Now say Farmer John has a field that the power company wants to build a line across. A rep from the company contacts Farmer John and negotiates the right-of-way agreement. Farmer John signs it and things go smoothly for both for years. One day Farmer John drops dead with a 30mm tater wound from some wayward firing Luftweener. His property is sold to a developer and then a couple of hundred track houses pop up on the property. As the houses are built the developer plants lots of flowers, trees, puts in a pool, walking path.....on and on, to sell those homes. People buy those homes left and right because they see a nice community for their families. Once in their new home they decide to put up privacy fences, add a few trees to the back of the property as a windbreak....

Time passes and those trees grow, right up into the power lines. So the power company comes out to do trimming. Guess what happens next? A lawsuit is filed because the power company dared trim the trees planted RIGHT UNDER THE LINES. Care to guess who wins in this situation? The lawyers most often. The power company gets smeared because it was doing what needed to be done to provide the electricity the customer needs and is paying for. The customer ends up mad at the power company for trimming the trees the customer planted under the lines and in the right-of-way. So the power company gets slammed from both sides of the fence, even tho they are staying withing the right-of-way agreement that has been in place for years prior to the subdivision being built. And, ya know what else? The developer knew about the agreement, its mentioned in the property plats and sales articles, as well as the ones the homeowners signed when they bought the home.

So now the power company is getting slammed for trimming those trees, so they back off a bit. It sucks, but how many lawsuits, in this day and age of "political correctness", can a company fight before they start getting hurt on (and God I hate this place) Wall Street?

Its a double edged sword for the customers and power company alike.

Someone is once again going to bring up underground lines......remember a few lines before I mentioned customers putting in pools and fences, AND trees? Well, how many of those customers bothered to get a location service out to their property before they dung in to plant those trees? In my state it is a free service mandated by the state. The power companies all put in money to provide that service, FREE TO THE CUSTOMER. Heck, there is an ad about it in the front of the phonebook! Power companies advertise it all the time and still those customers don't call for it.

So they dig and hit the lines, sometimes not even seeing the damage they have caused. The lines don't necessarily part, so the power goes uninterrupted for some time. then the lines finally part and a customer down the street ends up without power. Out comes the power company to dig in a yard up the street. Now you have a customer mad because their power is out, and another mad because they have a mudhole in their front yard, that they sodded in the spring, next to their wonderful Bradley Pear tree. Its not the individual that planted the tree/fence/pool that takes the heat, its the power company. So who is ultimately at fault? Most times the power company ends up paying to have a landscaper fix the yard to the homeowners liking(at least back as good as it was). The question here is who pays for the damages/crews doing the work? Why should the company pay for it? They didn't cause the situation.

Those are examples of what I see happen on a maddening basis. I am not an idiot that thinks power companies don't hold back to keep the cash flowing. My gripes there are WAY too numerous to post. But I do think there are many times that the power company takes more lumps than they should.

Folks, please excuse the long post, but most people just don't realize all that is involved when this subject comes up.


 

Offline Big Rat

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2012, 06:36:04 PM »
SIM,

Thanks for the post, I think you probably cleared up a lot of stuff for people there.  I have friend down the street that does a similiar job as well.  A very thankless job in many respects, I for one do appreciate the hard work :aok

 :salute
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Offline CAP1

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2012, 06:40:28 PM »
CAP, there is a long list of reasons why you don't see tree crews out and about as much as in times past.

My personal experiences cover many different situations, but a lot of those have a common thread......ignorance.

As a company builds in lines, they have to get right-of-way agreements with landowners so that they can cross the properties, whether overhead or underground. Those agreements contain clauses that guarantee the utility access to their equipment and facilities. Most companies have that clause contained in the service agreement customers sign when they apply for service. This has happened for YEARS. In some municipalities, the city may have right-of-way already set so the utility can build within that area without having to get one of their own.

Now say Farmer John has a field that the power company wants to build a line across. A rep from the company contacts Farmer John and negotiates the right-of-way agreement. Farmer John signs it and things go smoothly for both for years. One day Farmer John drops dead with a 30mm tater wound from some wayward firing Luftweener. :rofl :roflnow THAT's funny... His property is sold to a developer and then a couple of hundred track houses pop up on the property. As the houses are built the developer plants lots of flowers, trees, puts in a pool, walking path.....on and on, to sell those homes. People buy those homes left and right because they see a nice community for their families. Once in their new home they decide to put up privacy fences, add a few trees to the back of the property as a windbreak....

Time passes and those trees grow, right up into the power lines. So the power company comes out to do trimming. Guess what happens next? A lawsuit is filed because the power company dared trim the trees planted RIGHT UNDER THE LINES. Care to guess who wins in this situation? The lawyers most often. The power company gets smeared because it was doing what needed to be done to provide the electricity the customer needs and is paying for. The customer ends up mad at the power company for trimming the trees the customer planted under the lines and in the right-of-way. So the power company gets slammed from both sides of the fence, even tho they are staying withing the right-of-way agreement that has been in place for years prior to the subdivision being built. And, ya know what else? The developer knew about the agreement, its mentioned in the property plats and sales articles, as well as the ones the homeowners signed when they bought the home.this kind of crap pisses me off. i saw crap like this around local airports, wherew people move in right under the pattern....then complain.

So now the power company is getting slammed for trimming those trees, so they back off a bit. It sucks, but how many lawsuits, in this day and age of "political correctness", can a company fight before they start getting hurt on (and God I hate this place) Wall Street?

Its a double edged sword for the customers and power company alike.

Someone is once again going to bring up underground lines......remember a few lines before I mentioned customers putting in pools and fences, AND trees? Well, how many of those customers bothered to get a location service out to their property before they dung in to plant those trees? In my state it is a free service mandated by the state. The power companies all put in money to provide that service, FREE TO THE CUSTOMER. Heck, there is an ad about it in the front of the phonebook! Power companies advertise it all the time and still those customers don't call for it. this is a free service in nj too, but most people i talk to refuse to call, because it's their property, so why should they? they don't wanna hear about the stuff under the ground.

So they dig and hit the lines, sometimes not even seeing the damage they have caused. The lines don't necessarily part, so the power goes uninterrupted for some time. then the lines finally part and a customer down the street ends up without power. Out comes the power company to dig in a yard up the street. Now you have a customer mad because their power is out, and another mad because they have a mudhole in their front yard, that they sodded in the spring, next to their wonderful Bradley Pear tree. Its not the individual that planted the tree/fence/pool that takes the heat, its the power company. So who is ultimately at fault? Most times the power company ends up paying to have a landscaper fix the yard to the homeowners liking(at least back as good as it was). The question here is who pays for the damages/crews doing the work? Why should the company pay for it? They didn't cause the situation.

Those are examples of what I see happen on a maddening basis. I am not an idiot that thinks power companies don't hold back to keep the cash flowing. My gripes there are WAY too numerous to post. But I do think there are many times that the power company takes more lumps than they should.

Folks, please excuse the long post, but most people just don't realize all that is involved when this subject comes up.


 

 i actually appreciate this post. i'm also glad you realize i wasn't taking a shot at people that do what you do. reading the above though, makes it make more sense.  :salute
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Offline CAP1

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2012, 06:41:50 PM »
SIM,

Thanks for the post, I think you probably cleared up a lot of stuff for people there.  I have friend down the street that does a similiar job as well.  A very thankless job in many respects, I for one do appreciate the hard work :aok

 :salute
BigRat

 same here. like i said, my grand mom used to be out offering the guys drinks when they came around. if i'm home, and see em working, i do the same. i appreciate what other people do.
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Offline Skilless

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2012, 06:59:55 PM »
The kind of situation simm describes is impossible here.  Utilitiy easements are right in the survey and are non-negotiable.  No permanant structures can be built on the easement and access must be granted by the landowner at all times.  Yet...  The local power company appears to be on about a ten year maintaince schedule and seem content on putting bandaids on gaping wounds rather than investing in prevention.  Consumer's Energy doesn't even do their own trimming anymore; they sub it out...

Offline SIM

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2012, 07:41:08 PM »
Cap and BigRat,
 
 I tell ya....there's nothing like being up a pole on hooks or in a bucket and having lightening pop nearby!


Nor is there anything more humbling than having someone who's home has been destroyed during a hurricane, bother to come out and offer men a drink of their water because of the heat. That goes such a long way on my job........

I was in Bogalusa Louisiana right after Katrina and during Rita(riding out Rita in a picnic shelter was a hell of a ride!). Worked Jeanne in Tampa and Plant City Florida. Was in Virginia chasing Irene out. Clarkesville Indiana and Louisville Kentucky on Ike. The list goes on.....Gotta mention HUGO....it was here at home.....


I couldn't ever really tell ya what the best or worst part of the job might be, its too hard to remember all the times.........

So come on Cap, I'll take ya for a bucket ride if those hooks worry ya!


Offline CAP1

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2012, 08:22:32 PM »
Cap and BigRat,
 
 I tell ya....there's nothing like being up a pole on hooks or in a bucket and having lightening pop nearby!


Nor is there anything more humbling than having someone who's home has been destroyed during a hurricane, bother to come out and offer men a drink of their water because of the heat. That goes such a long way on my job........

I was in Bogalusa Louisiana right after Katrina and during Rita(riding out Rita in a picnic shelter was a hell of a ride!). Worked Jeanne in Tampa and Plant City Florida. Was in Virginia chasing Irene out. Clarkesville Indiana and Louisville Kentucky on Ike. The list goes on.....Gotta mention HUGO....it was here at home.....


I couldn't ever really tell ya what the best or worst part of the job might be, its too hard to remember all the times.........

So come on Cap, I'll take ya for a bucket ride if those hooks worry ya!



 ya know? i can honestly tell ya that that would scare the everloving crap outta me.....enough to give you laughing fits for at least a year. 

 that said, i'd love to do it at least once.
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Offline ROC

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2012, 01:33:58 AM »
Quote
Yet...  The local power company appears to be on about a ten year maintaince schedule and seem content on putting bandaids on gaping wounds rather than investing in prevention

Ever gone through the permit process to build or expand a power generating facility?  I have.

Go spend 5 years to bring a peak plant into your neighborhood, deal with the real need to improve the power grid, deal with the bureaucracy of the governing agency, then the environmentalists, then the nimby, then tell me why 5 years later the project was killed by the community that demanded new homes and improved quality.  Yep, those greedy rat bastages at the power companies are just going out of their way to limit power.  Umm, they make money if they get you power, think about it.   

What "appears to be" isn't always what the reality of it is.  Now, if you'd like to discuss facts based on your real experience, I'd be happy to compare regional differences in how the power generation system works out here, but I won't be discussing facts while you argue assumptions and guesses.
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Offline Skilless

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2012, 04:07:44 PM »
You sure do dodge the subject, huh?  No one ecxept you is talking about power generation, building power plants, consumption, expansion or improving the quality of existing grids.  What is being discussed is the upkeep and maintaince of and mainly the trimming of trees around overhead wires.  In this area, tree trimming is such an afterthought that the power company actually subs it out.  They seem to be on about a ten year schedule.  Mostly though, what they do is cut up the trees that fall on the wires.  After power has been disrupted.

Offline SIM

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2012, 04:13:10 PM »
So tell me Skilless,

 What do you know as a "good" versus "bad" maintenance schedule? Or what is a band-aid repair? Care to elaborate on your experience?

 I ask because i hear those terms ALL the time mainly from folks who really don't know what their talking about, and not those who are willing to listen and think for a few minutes.

 So please, by all means enlighten me.

P.S. Complaining about a company using sub-contractors really smacks of someone from a union instead of a concerned customer......

Offline Skilless

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2012, 04:31:53 PM »
Tell you what...  On my way home tonight I'll take some pictures of a few examples of what I consider unacceptable maintaince.

Offline SIM

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2012, 04:32:38 PM »
Now who is dodging a question or subject?

Offline Skilless

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2012, 04:48:29 PM »
SIM...  Do you own a power company or something?  This sure is a touchy subject for you.  I'm not telling you that YOU are doing a bad job.  I'm not saying that the company that YOU work for is doing a bad job.  I'm saying that the power company here has some pretty crazy ideas of what comprises preventive maintaince, and low and behold, we sure get A LOT of power outages.

Offline SIM

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2012, 04:53:34 PM »
Like I said Skilless, who is dodging the question now?

Come on, show some reasonable amount of knowledge about what you are trying to describe as shoddy maintenance, or ask whether what you think is right or wrong.

Yeah its a touchy subject for me, but not one time here have I avoided a comment.

You Sir, are skill-less so far.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 04:56:05 PM by SIM »

Offline CAP1

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Re: India power grid collapse 620 million left without power
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2012, 04:56:41 PM »
skilless....i think it's touchy for sim, 'cause he gets to be the one going up a 60' or higher pole around stupid amounts of current flow in 45mph winds, rain, snow, and all that other watermelon most people don't like doing things like that in.

 then to top it off, i'm sure he's had more than one person standing down below calling him all kinds of names as he tries to restore their power........
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