Less eyestrain from a more realistic air-ground contrast ratio

[TDeacon]

<snip>
…add the ability to control the following items with separate sliders:

Brightness
Contrast
Gamma (move it from its present position)
Hue
Saturation
<snip>

Some comments

1)   FYI, Wraith’s adjustments quoted above are not what the OP was referring to.  Actually, my main game monitor already gives me the first 2 in-game, Gamma is already in-game, and the last 2 have no bearing on my request. 

2)   Again, what the OP is requesting is an adjustment of ground brightness relative to sky brightness.  Not scaled for distance, etc., which in any case would probably be harder to implement.  Now if one sets brightness and/or gamma to maximum, the perceived contrast between ground and sky *is* reduced.  However, this is not the solution, because making the entire screen too much brighter than ambient room lighting also causes eyestrain.  (Remember how they used to tell us not to watch TV in a darkened room)?

3)   Keep in mind that the OP has a GV focus.  When flying, one isn’t constantly staring at a sky-ground horizon as one is when GVing.  For those who don’t GV much, the GV’s horizon is where stuff first appears which is in a position to kill you. 

4)   I do agree that any change made should be controllable at the AH client end, so each player can pick what they prefer.  QUESTION FOR HITECH:  Can you give us a linear adjustment of either terrain tile brightness (preferred) or sky brightness (2nd choice)?  In the latter case, the user could then as a second step increase the sky back to its original brightness with gamma, bringing the ground brightness up with it and retaining the desired lessened contrast condition. 

MH

[Tank-Ace]

Games really starting to look beautiful. I still think the best thing we could do for it right now is to give some more directionality to the lighting.

[bustr]

Chilli,

If you did not photoshop your last screen captures for us illustrating gamma. The two with the blue against green demarcation are the easiest on the eyes to stare at. The hazed white DMZ between green ground and blue sky use up your eyes with the unrealistic LCD glare. In real life I've never had my eyes glared out by staring long distance at the horizon over oceans or on land unless I was watching the sun. Granted light reflection from water and snow will glare burn your retna but, thats not modeled in this game.

Maybe the width of the artificial haze horizon DMZ line should be much narrower and less bright from gamma adjustments. I try to adjust the contrast of ground to sky demarcation from my desktop using bright, contrast and gamma first. Then the game gamma. Some maps after that, 12noon is fantastic. Others so so. I've calibrated my monitor's RGB to the best it can give me for it's consumer targeted quality.

Just the differences in maps and 12noon along with all of the 40 somethings to geriatrics playing this game would be an argument for a tad bit more user control over what we see. Heck even water, ground and sky control specific sliders to adjust their contrast\heu to each other.....

Marmalaid skys, tangerin ground and hot pink seas....woo, woo......the wife must have slipped something in my tea this morning..

[Chilli]

Games really starting to look beautiful. I still think the best thing we could do for it right now is to give some more directionality to the lighting.  Yes, it can look very beautiful, I agree.  What maybe the OP has touched on, is that it could still go a step farther. - Chilli

Some comments

1)   FYI, Wraith’s adjustments quoted above are not what the OP was referring to.  Actually, my main game monitor already gives me the first 2 in-game, Gamma is already in-game, and the last 2 have no bearing on my request.  I totally disagree.  It is EXACTLY what is needed to reduce eyestrain.  Also, adjustments to your monitor are global and carry over to all other aspects of your desktop (even worse for eyestrain - on that you can believe me brother  - ChiLLi).

2)   Again, what the OP is requesting is an adjustment of ground brightness relative to sky brightness.  Not scaled for distance, etc., which in any case would probably be harder to implement.  Now if one sets brightness and/or gamma to maximum, the perceived contrast between ground and sky *is* reduced.  Follow your own wisdom here.  Brightness and Gamma are separate entities.  Add the third, Contrast, and your journey will have been successful - Chilli  However, this is not the solution, because making the entire screen too much brighter than ambient room lighting also causes eyestrain.  (Remember how they used to tell us not to watch TV in a darkened room)?

3)   Keep in mind that the OP has a GV focus.  When flying, one isn’t constantly staring at a sky-ground horizon as one is when GVing.  For those who don’t GV much, the GV’s horizon is where stuff first appears which is in a position to kill you. Take a look at the comparisons that I made side by side with your screenshot wish.  The word "contrast" is even in your header.  I get it, you intend "contrast" to refer to the difference between sky and terrain, but I cannot impress upon you any clearer that your IN-Game solution to brighten the terrain, misses on a number of levels. - ChiLLi

4)   I do agree that any change made should be controllable at the AH client end, so each player can pick what they prefer. Definitely agree here. But hereinafter you are again confusing brightness, gamma and contrast. - ChiLLi  QUESTION FOR HITECH:  Can you give us a linear adjustment of either terrain tile brightness (preferred) or sky brightness (2nd choice)?  In the latter case, the user could then as a second step increase the sky back to its original brightness with gamma, bringing the ground brightness up with it and retaining the desired lessened contrast condition. 

MH

Chilli,

If you did not photoshop your last screen captures for us illustrating gamma. The two with the blue against green demarcation are the easiest on the eyes to stare at. {snip}  I had to "photoshop" it in order for the results to display on your desktop.  That is also why HiTech asked for the actual sky color reference, which I included.  Any adjustment made on my desktop will not be displayed on your computer.  There will even be a difference in what you are seeing now and what I see.  Also, I do agree with the rest of your post that I clipped. -ChiLLi 

[pervert]

From what I can see the new clouds add a great deal of realism and are a huge improvement, they seem disjointed from the earth now, much like a painting things in the distance tend to be less sharp, less detail and with more blue or purple, regardless of their original colour, aces high has a lot of sharp lines on distant hills in green (same colour as the foreground) even in the best screenshots I've seen, the maps also lack a lot of yellow in the landscapes. Here in Ireland which is predominately known for being 'green' you will find plenty of yellows and dark reds or purples everywhere in the landscapes.

[TDeacon]

<MH prev post>1)   FYI, Wraith’s adjustments quoted above are not what the OP was referring to.  Actually, my main game monitor already gives me the first 2 in-game, Gamma is already in-game, and the last 2 have no bearing on my request.  <Chilli’s response> I totally disagree.  It is EXACTLY what is needed to reduce eyestrain.  Also, adjustments to your monitor are global and carry over to all other aspects of your desktop (even worse for eyestrain - on that you can believe me brother   - ChiLLi).

Nope.  I have always adjusted monitor brightness, contrast, and in-game gamma for AH.  These settings are inevitably different than those I use out-of-game.  No combination of these 3 adjustments removes the in-game sky/ground contrast issue, without making the ground overall too flat.  From the OP: “BTW, I realize that monitors allow a certain degree of contrast adjustment.  The problem with that work-around is that it only goes so far, and it reduces the contrast between the different ground terrain features as well, making everything look unrealistically flat and making it hard to see things on the ground.”

<MH prev post>2)   Again, what the OP is requesting is an adjustment of ground brightness relative to sky brightness.  Not scaled for distance, etc., which in any case would probably be harder to implement.  Now if one sets brightness and/or gamma to maximum, the perceived contrast between ground and sky *is* reduced.  <Chilli’s response> Follow your own wisdom here.  Brightness and Gamma are separate entities.  Add the third, Contrast, and your journey will have been successful - Chilli  <snip>

For AH, the in-game gamma slider, and the brightness control on the front of my monitor, have very similar net effects, i.e. they both make the screen brighter or darker.  While gamma” and “brightness” are as you say distinct concepts, it is what actually happens in game, on the equipment being used, which matters.  Again, I already have access to all 3 separate adjustments, and have experimented with them extensively, but the problem remains.  If you are happy with what you see, fine, but I am not.  

<MH prev post>3)   Keep in mind that the OP has a GV focus.  When flying, one isn’t constantly staring at a sky-ground horizon as one is when GVing.  For those who don’t GV much, the GV’s horizon is where stuff first appears which is in a position to kill you. <Chilli’s response> Take a look at the comparisons that I made side by side with your screenshot wish.  The word "contrast" is even in your header.  I get it, you intend "contrast" to refer to the difference between sky and terrain, but I cannot impress upon you any clearer that your IN-Game solution to brighten the terrain, misses on a number of levels. - ChiLLi

What exactly is the point of your screen shots?  We already know that the 3 adjustments being discussed vary the appearance of the screen.  The problem is that in my experience they don’t produce the desired result.  To repeat, the desired result is individual player adjustment of the overall “ground” brightness (ground, trees, buildings, etc.) separately from that of the sky.  It would be as if you selected the “ground” half of your screen in Photoshop, and brightened it, leaving the sky as-is.  Alternatively, you could select the “sky” half of the screen in Photoshop and darken it, leaving the “ground as-is (which is what I did in my previous image).  Either way, this means that the relationship between the different ground elements would remain untouched, which is a result which cannot be obtained by any overall adjustment of gamma, brightness, or contrast.  If HiTech were able to make the change I am requesting in my previous post, I could obtain the desired result, and so could everyone else.  For example, if you already like what you see, you could leave it at the defaults.  

<MH prev post>4)   I do agree that any change made should be controllable at the AH client end, so each player can pick what they prefer. <Chilli’s response> Definitely agree here. But hereinafter you are again confusing brightness, gamma and contrast. - ChiLLi  <snip>

See above.  BTW, please use the Forum “quote” feature, as it is harder to respond when someone edits my quotes with colored text.  

MH

(P.S.:  I switchd to Rooks last weekend, so when I get my system fixed, we can carry this dispute to the MA.   )

[The Fugitive]

I don't know, but it seems to me that every suggestion/wish you post all seem to have one thing in common. They all can be used to make spawn camping easier for you to do.  This one you want it so you can change the terrain so that a tank possible stands out better against the background of the terrain.

Either that or your not explaining yourself very well. It seems Chilli has pointed out some solutions to make adjustments on your end to help reduce "eyestrain"  like that is the real reason. 

[bustr]

I find once on zoom all eye strain goes away and that tank way off in the distance stands out very clear and easy to see. And I'm tunnel visioned to one tiny clear point off in the distance. And I have no chance of seeing motion 100 yards to either side of that tank off in the distance or keeping my self from getting shot trying to visualy scan the full feild from my nose to 3k out.

When I'm tryng to pan my head on TrackIR to scan the feild non-zoomed looking for enemy tanks or GV, I end up with my face pushed up a bit closer to the monitor than I ever have to while flying trying to recognise tiney shack pixel shapes from tank pixel shapes past 1.5k.

I almost wonder if GV'ers dont need a small floating box in their screen that they can set to any of the possible zoom values for their tank commander position while in that position. It will be tunnel visioned to whatever point many thousands of yards out while they can scan on normal vision being able to pan with a wide local feild of view. Kind of like looking in the tiny LCD panel of a video recorder zoomed to see a bird at 100 yards feeding it's young while you keep an eye out next to you for that croc trying to hit you 20 feet away.

Some how this all seems like an effort to slowly get back for GV's the old 5 mile zoom that could see through hills and let you count the hairs on the other tank commanders nose.

I get eye strain from the hazy optics in the 17lb gun that happens past 2k on zoom engaging tanks out 3-5k up on slopes.

[TDeacon]

I don't know, but it seems to me that every suggestion/wish you post all seem to have one thing in common. They all can be used to make spawn camping easier for you to do.  This one you want it so you can change the terrain so that a tank possible stands out better against the background of the terrain.

Either that or your not explaining yourself very well. It seems Chilli has pointed out some solutions to make adjustments on your end to help reduce "eyestrain"   like that is the real reason.  

Some people tend to assume the familiar (to them) explanation; it your case, it is "spawn camping".  (BTW, did you get a chance to read my previous response to your "spawn camping" suspicions?  You should do so; it's here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,337618.135.html)  

But these people are wrong in this case; from my post just above:  "Either way, this means that the relationship between the different ground elements would remain untouched, which is a result which cannot be obtained by any overall adjustment of gamma, brightness, or contrast."  You probably have to read the entire paragraph to get the full meaning.  

BTW, per my previous post, Chilli (bless him) is also (mostly) wrong.  

MH

[TDeacon]

Bustr, please tell me how lightening the ground half of the screen (relative to the sky) helps a GVer find enemy tanks???  We can already vary the gamma, brightness, and contrast of the *entire* screen.  Try it yourself; you will see that the OP's request yields no additional GV sighting advantage.  Sometimes the stated reason is actually the real reason.    

MH

[The Fugitive]

Some people tend to assume the familiar (to them) explanation; it your case, it is "spawn camping".  (BTW, did you get a chance to read my previous response to your "spawn camping" suspicions?  You should do so; it's here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,337618.135.html)  

But these people are wrong in this case; from my post just above:  "Either way, this means that the relationship between the different ground elements would remain untouched, which is a result which cannot be obtained by any overall adjustment of gamma, brightness, or contrast."  You probably have to read the entire paragraph to get the full meaning.  

BTW, per my previous post, Chilli (bless him) is also (mostly) wrong.  

MH

Yes I read your reply and decided to not bother and reply myself as it wouldn't change your mind any. We both made our points and were both sticking to them. In your case, I'm glad you had a great fight in that instance, but answer this, how often does that happen? I'm guessing not to often. I'm sure you run into the occasional battle with a few tanks per side maneuvering, and shooting that lasts 20 minutes or so, but again, I'm sure also that it happens rarely.

In this case your complaining about "eyestrain". This I don't understand. Odds are pretty good that I'll start playing tomorrow between 1 and 2 eastern, and continue through 11 at night with a short break for supper. I do this most Saturdays and don't have an issue with "eyestrain". Over 8 hours of looking for those blasted little dots that turn into planes, or trying to figure out which clumps are bushes and which are tanks, along with watching some movies on a 13 inch tv I have mounted over my computer screen, again with out an issue. So to me I don't see a problem with the terrains causing "eyestrain".

What other options are there for this type of call? Having read these boards for over 10 years I've read an awful lot of posts, and have seen many a question/request worded many a different way. In my experience, this looks like a smoke screen to cover what looks to be another request to make some aspect of the game easier, "it's too hard for me to see the bad guys!".

Our GV's have a VERY limited roll in this game.  So, our players have whittled it down to to lowest common denominator, spawn camp as many kills as you can. If there were added structure to the GV game and made grabbing bases MORE worth while with GVs than planes, or depots that could be attacked and destroyed by GVs to hinder/cripple the enemies GVs (much like the city/depot strat system they have for the bases, but geared toward GVs only) You would see something more from GVs. As it is, I will stick with the "familiar explanation" as that is what I see most of the time I play. Until I see mostly battles using tank columns with flanking maneuvers and other tactic that have nothing to do with blasting a tank as in "materializes" out of thin air, the "familiar explanation" is the right one.

[TDeacon]

Yes I read your reply and decided to not bother and reply myself as it wouldn't change your mind any. We both made our points and were both sticking to them. In your case, I'm glad you had a great fight in that instance, but answer this, how often does that happen? I'm guessing not to often. I'm sure you run into the occasional battle with a few tanks per side maneuvering, and shooting that lasts 20 minutes or so, but again, I'm sure also that it happens rarely.

In this case your complaining about "eyestrain". This I don't understand. Odds are pretty good that I'll start playing tomorrow between 1 and 2 eastern, and continue through 11 at night with a short break for supper. I do this most Saturdays and don't have an issue with "eyestrain". Over 8 hours of looking for those blasted little dots that turn into planes, or trying to figure out which clumps are bushes and which are tanks, along with watching some movies on a 13 inch tv I have mounted over my computer screen, again with out an issue. So to me I don't see a problem with the terrains causing "eyestrain".

What other options are there for this type of call? Having read these boards for over 10 years I've read an awful lot of posts, and have seen many a question/request worded many a different way. In my experience, this looks like a smoke screen to cover what looks to be another request to make some aspect of the game easier, "it's too hard for me to see the bad guys!".

Our GV's have a VERY limited roll in this game.  So, our players have whittled it down to to lowest common denominator, spawn camp as many kills as you can. If there were added structure to the GV game and made grabbing bases MORE worth while with GVs than planes, or depots that could be attacked and destroyed by GVs to hinder/cripple the enemies GVs (much like the city/depot strat system they have for the bases, but geared toward GVs only) You would see something more from GVs. As it is, I will stick with the "familiar explanation" as that is what I see most of the time I play. Until I see mostly battles using tank columns with flanking maneuvers and other tactic that have nothing to do with blasting a tank as in "materializes" out of thin air, the "familiar explanation" is the right one.

Remember that each person’s vision is different.  In my case, I’m 61 years old this year, and I make my living sitting in front of a computer all day.  After work I browse or play computer games.  I had been playing more AH lately (until Sunday night when the 9800XT died), and because of my old PC, I was mostly GVing.  All this probably makes me more sensitive to the ground/sky contrast issue.  This, and only this, is the motivation for the OP. 

MH 
 

[bustr]

I played with the horizon tinight. Normaly from an 8inch shore battery on zoom ships dissapere into the haze at 20.1k yards. I sink CV at 20k without using those funky modes. I hit tanks out to 8k with the 88 the same way I hit CV with the 8inch using the circle and knowing it's relationship to the size of the object. You just range up to 3 shots and you are on. Tonight I turned off the horizon which gave a nice simple demarcation. It also allowed me to hit and candle a CV at 24.1k yards as a white silloutte at full zoom.

The problem is I had my game gamma at 1.8. While this makes the game look like noon untill just before the sun goes down, it creates horrendous haze past 5k depending on the terrain. But, on zoom at distance I can see things like parts of tanks from the 88 or 17lb standing out in the terrain.

Tonight I adjusted my gamma back to 1.6 which showcases the vivid color pallet of the game like a Walt Disney production along with reminding me why I hate how fast a day cycles into lower light conditions. Only between 11am-2pm unzoomed do tanks stand out past 2k against the lush colors of the environment. The same for chasing a con around at ground level and I don't have to go to 100% zoom to clearly pick him out from the background, and see his vector changes so I can put rounds dead into him and not some bushes that blend with him.

I can see a requirment for some players eyes to have an ability to adjust the heu relationships of water, ground and sky then gamma affecting all three equaly. Also shrinking the width of the horizon demarcation line blur. When I turned off the horizon it was perceptable that I had turned off a mild eye strain akin to reading web pages that are not visualy balanced but, have too much white\white in large areas that you read from.

Now,, to someone not in their 40-60's, I doubt they even care what we are describing.

[Chilli]

To answer your question, "what is the point....." referring to the time I spent making examples of the darkest possible terrain environment ~ 6:00 AH time. I offered a visual reference showing the results that CONTRAST, BRIGHTNESS and GAMMA provide.  In the original reply, each adjustment was clearly labeled.  So, I ask you, which portion of the split screen EXAMPLES do you feel would offer the most comfortable viewing with less eyestrain? (included your example in the middle as a choice as well).

Other than that, I would ask that HiTech consider that there is more than one opinion on what eases eyestrain for us    I could start another thread asking for the sun gamma reduction (by the way I am certain there have been many  ), or brighter low detail sea color at Dusk and Dawn, or a number of other lighting / viewing requests.  Instead, I chose your thread with the best of intentions to help define an area of improvement that a great number of individuals might enjoy.

Tanking however, I have to agree with Fugitive, leaves a lot to be desired for me, most of the time.  When I do tank, you probably wouldn't want to be anywhere near me on range vox.  It drives me nuts

[TDeacon]

To answer your question, "what is the point....." referring to the time I spent making examples of the darkest possible terrain environment ~ 6:00 AH time. I offered a visual reference showing the results that CONTRAST, BRIGHTNESS and GAMMA provide.  In the original reply, each adjustment was clearly labeled.  So, I ask you, which portion of the split screen EXAMPLES do you feel would offer the most comfortable viewing with less eyestrain? (included your example in the middle as a choice as well).

Clearly the right-side example on each of the 3 images involves less sky/ground contrast.  The problem is that these are Photoshop images intended to illustrate my (and your) respective points, and not necessarily images showing the ideal, or even in my case possible, settings desired.  

As stated previously, I was unable to get a satisfactory sky/ground contrast condition on my equipment, even though I was using all 3 adjustments (gamma, brightness, and contrast).  Thus the OP request.  I would be interested in getting feedback from HiTech as to whether he would consider adding the ability to adjust the entire-as-a-unit-ground-brightness, in a linear manner, at each individual player's AH client program.  He may have missed that request, given all the auxilliary discussion we have been engaged in.  

So in case he did miss it, here it is again:  QUESTION FOR HITECH:  Can you give us a linear adjustment of either terrain tile brightness (preferred) or sky brightness (2nd choice)?  In the latter case, the user could then as a second step increase the sky back to its original brightness with gamma, bringing the ground brightness up with it and retaining the desired lessened contrast condition.

MH