P-40C (or B) vs. 109E

[MK-84]

As long as the speeds stay above 250 TAS and at at 12k-15k me thinks it would be more of a pilot vs pilot fight than a P40C vs 109E-4 match duel.  The only real card the P40 can play is a better dive speed and control ability at those high speeds.  Otherwise, the 109E-4 seems to me would have a better climb, a better acceleration, and a better snap shot ability (the quad .30's and dual .50's need to land multiple hits while the 109E-4 can land only 1-2 20mm and get results).  Otherwise I think turn and roll is not all that different with maybe a slight edge to the P40 in the roll (Just a theory, I have not tested it yet).

As far as how they were flown in WWII in North Africa, I'd be willing to be the rules of engagement favored and tactics favored the Allies in the P40C vs 109E-4 match-ups.  It isn't quite so black and white and crystal clear to which plane is/was superior in the real deal as it is in AH.  Keep that in mind with all things in AH.   

^this.  The ability to disengage as soon as the conditions become unfavorable is a huge advantage.  It is not so much in AH, where we don't get hurt when we "die" 
In an AH fight I want the 109e, in RL I think I would want the P40?  It's hard to compare performance when dying isnt an issue.  But if it was I want the plane that can get the hell out of dodge if things go south, and that makes the P40 the winner.

[Wildcat1]

^this.  The ability to disengage as soon as the conditions become unfavorable is a huge advantage.  It is not so much in AH, where we don't get hurt when we "die" 
In an AH fight I want the 109e, in RL I think I would want the P40?  It's hard to compare performance when dying isnt an issue.  But if it was I want the plane that can get the hell out of dodge if things go south, and that makes the P40 the winner.

this. I think the reason most British pilots found it unfavorable was because it wasn't as responsive as rides they were used to, i.e. the Gladiator, Hurricane, Spitfire etc.

IIRC the P-40C can turn inside the 109E. it is close, though. Engine performance is definitely a key advantage the 109 has over the P-40, but where it falls behind is high-speed responsiveness. At favorable altitudes it is a pretty even fight.

[GScholz]

But if it was I want the plane that can get the hell out of dodge if things go south, and that makes the P40 the winner.

Not quite...



Below 15k the 109E is the faster ride and thus the one who can choose to disengage at will. The P-40 will have to stay above 20k to have any appreciable speed advantage over the 109, but if it dives the 109 will catch up eventually.


Even above 20k the 109 can always gain an energy advantage over the P-40 by spiral climbing:

[EagleDNY]

I don't think the USAAF took the P40C model to North Africa.  According to my history of the USN in WW2 / Vol 2 (Operations in North African Waters), ACV 28 Chenango TF34 carried 76 Army P40Fs with them for future basing in Casablanca. 

[10thmd]

I have a poster of the Uss Chenango with p40's taking of the carrier.

[SmokinLoon]

There are multiple pictures out there with the P40F model flying off the carrier decks in the MTO, obviously for ferrying purposes and not for combat operations  (none that I am aware of anyways).  I have not seen photos anywhere of P40C's on a carrier deck.

[LCADolby]

AH P40 doesn't have WEP 

109E4 should win in an AH fight

[titanic3]

Emil > P40, all day any day.

[Slade]

Guys please comment about the P-40f.  How do you feel it competes with different 109 variants?

Thanks.

[titanic3]

In an equal E situation? All 109 should wreck any P40.

[SmokinLoon]

Guys please comment about the P-40f.  How do you feel it competes with different 109 variants?

Thanks.

Not much of an easier of a fight than if you were in the C model.  The P40's in general are heavy, climb poorly, and accelerate like grandma in a wheel chair.  They are built tough, dive well, can roll well, and can surprise enemy fighters in initial turns.  Once the fight is slow all any 109 has to do is get in to a 2000ft/min spiral climb and the game is over.  The P40 needs to stay fast and as high as possible, keep the fight as open as possible, and use the ammo load to its advantage.  In a knife fight the 109 wins.

The C is probably the most agile, but the weakest engine (best climb though), and weakest guns (4/.30's and 2/.50's).  The E is slightly heavier, yet slightly faster with better guns.  The F is for up high stuff.  The N is the best all around (at alts below 12k thanks to an impressive WEP), but it too is heavy.  Ultimately, it is all about which paint job or unit you want to represent.    I'm looking forward to the RAF skin for the C model.    

[swareiam]

Guys please comment about the P-40f.  How do you feel it competes with different 109 variants?

Thanks.

The P-40F had a follow up variant in the L which historically gave he early 109Fs and Gs some go. Because of the P-40s disadvantages there were not that many P-40 aces in the western desert. The P-40L was a stripped down version of the F, which still sported the RRM, but with less armor, two less 50 .cals and less range. The L could handle itself with the 109 when it had the altitude advantage. A prolonged fight would spell out its death. But, as many of you have mentioned, if the P-40L maintains it "E" and altitude, "watch out".

October's Sunday European Campaign will be featuring the P-40F/L and P-38G vs 109G2s, 109G6s and C202s over the Island of Pantelleria.

You all are invited to join for what should be some really great action. I hope to see you there.



See you in October.

 

[Angus]

I was looking at a playful P-40 at Duxford the other day.
And then as well, 2x109's....but they were Buchons. They did a nice show though.

BTW, Spitfires used spiral climbing as an evasive maneuver vs 109's......

[SmokinLoon]

I was looking at a playful P-40 at Duxford the other day.
And then as well, 2x109's....but they were Buchons. They did a nice show though.

BTW, Spitfires used spiral climbing as an evasive maneuver vs 109's......

iirc, the "spiral climb" the Spitfires used a tight and steep climb defensively vs the 109's because the wing load of the 109's couldn't maintain the climb as long as the Spits.  Anyone able to confirm this?  I remember reading something of that nature long ago.

[Angus]

Johnny Johnsson once out-spiralled a gaggle of 109's in his Spit IX. It was a bit tight until he hit 20K, then he just said bye-bye. It's in his autobiography. I think it was a 1 vs 12 set-up, but not sure.