ack on crack

[Zigrat]

what is with 5 inch ack in this game

it is not affected by manouver: jinking, changing altitudes, nothing stops its deadly accuracy

it has auto IFF at 25,000 ft

it shoots at a friendly con engaged with an enemy when theres an equal chance of killing friendly or enemy

PLEASE do 2 things for gunners


1) DISABLE AI 5 inch guns, make them player manned ONLY, keep small caliber fleet guns AI controlled

2) remove range icons for gunners, just say plane type and nationality

[Wardog]

Ive not been affected by this problem. Maybe it prone to certain planes. I still fight in AA over enemy CVs and have a lota damn fun doin it.


Dog out..

[Voss]

I dance in ack all the time. I've lost one 51 to 88's at knight hq, and no buffs. I took a single hit in an Arado once. I was being silly and made three passes on the CV, which was jinking to avoid eggs, so I deserved it.  

(psst: Arados are seldom seen above 20k)

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Voss
13th TAS

[GRUNHERZ]

I think its the CV flak modeling is the worst part of the entire naval aspect of AH.
I would now like to post in a reasonable manner why I belive this is so, and would appreciate any reasonable feedback- no personal attacks please.

First of all it fires out very very far, often the puffs appear before one even sees the carrier.

The flak opens up at anything over 3000ft altitude, one can easily confirm this by flying over and under 3000ft alt and you will see it stop when you go under then immediately reappear as soon as you cross over 3000ft.

These two lead to well known CV tactic in AH, that is parking the fleet close off shore and laying a suppresive flak barage that limits defenders getting over 3000ft alt unless they want an immediate flak barrage.

Why is this bad? Well the people upping from the CV can then just climb as high as they want inside this curtain and have an immediate alt advantage. Any enemy fighter who comes inside the flak coverage over 3k alt will bu pummeled.

These errors are made most rediculosly obvious during a tight turning combat within flak range and over 3k alt. Flak puffs surround any enemy fighters while the guys from the CV who are dogfighting the enemy, and only feet apart take no fire.  Is this a good thing, are the proximity fuses some advanced new IFF model?

Another important point:

The AI flak serves no direct defensive purpose, ie it doesnt actually shoot down planes directly targeting the fleet. Sometimes I take a P38 or bomber and divebomb attack a CV, not once have I been killed by the 5 inch AI flak, Im usually killed by the light ack guns as I get very close to the CV. I havent noticed it taking out hi level bombers much either.

Basically the current CV flak model is useless, its only purpose is to supress and harass enemy fighters over 3000ft alt, while leaving CV borne fighters immune from its fire.
 

[Voss]

You know what? None of that bothers me. In fact, some of the best sorties I've had are under that flak curtain.

I have learned to lob eggs from a P-51, and get reasonably close to hitting the CV. Still, the dive bombing tactic is the best way, especially with a plane that dies in ack so easy as the Pony. Getting in to kill it isn't too hard, due to the altitude changes involved.

If you park your CV close to shore, then you deserve to have it killed out from under you. When the curtain is lifted fly accordingly.

The CV's offer mobile airfields, which you can use to advantage without having to brush the coast, but I see nothing wrong with suppressing an airfield with heavy shells and ack. I just wish I knew how to aim those big guns (still a mystery to me). Even that is not too interesting to me, though.

It's all part of the game, guys. Let's learn to adjust to the existing game and move on to having fun again. If, you don't like the fleet, learn to kill it or try to fly somewhere else. Not a problem, really.

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Voss
13th TAS

[Zigrat]

voss the problem is the 5 inch ack is not realistic

it fires outside range where it can identify friend or foe. it just "appears" it is never actually fired from carrier guns. turret traverse is not takeninto account.

saying that something that isnt "right" is just part of the game is absurd

[Voss]

Ah, I think I see your point. You want to see turret traverse time figured in so you can adjust to it with some tactic or another? I don't see why, but okay. It seems to me that you can defeat this with multiple aircraft. Whether there is an actual barrel pointing at you, or not, bothers you? I can see that.

I think, though, that the way it is counters for the lack of more ships. Not much, but a little. Still doesn't bother me.

I still want to see the CV tip up before it slides into the sea (as posted in Superfly's post on Images). I'm always too busy somewhere else. Anyone got film?

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Voss
13th TAS

[eskimo]

The only thing that I don't like about the CV ack is that it seams impossible to avoid.  It stays with you no matter what you do to avoid it.  The shells seem to have no travel time.  They don't puff where you were going 2 seconds ago, they puff where you are right now.  Climb through 3K at the extended range of the ack.  The instant you hit 3k, they puff, no travel time.  Pull a 4G turn in the flack, it sticks with you, like the gunner knew what you were going to do even before you did.
This is my perception of the flack.
Anyone else agree?

eskimo

[Tac]

been saying all this for a long time.

I'd love to see a fleet behave like a fleet for ONCE. The CHOG waves wouldnt be a danger if they didnt have the flak smacking stuff above 3k or killing planes that come high as reinforcements from another field.

Perhaps the fleets would be kept at a good d12+ from airfields and launch their strikes.


I like the idea of having the flak be player-manned only. I think AIRFIELDS should have this too. Large airfields could have the most # of flaks, small airfields could have only 2 flak batteries (easily killed by strafing).

Then reduce the amazing 1 ping kill hispanolike field/fleet AA to have the power of a 30 cal gun and we may see some improvement.

[Fatty]

Wouldn't ack on crack be less accurate than a clean ack?

[Jigster]

I thought everyone knew crack hones one's skills.

Another victim of government propaganda?

[Pongo]

It is interesting that the ack is only useful as a deterent to enemy fighters that are engageing fighters. It is useless against me in my Lanc at 10k. The cv dies nearly every time. I live nearly every time.
This cannot be coincidental. We are intended to atack these things with level bombers from 10-20k.  So thats what I do.
If the area arround the fleet is a flack jungle at 3k and up the area arround an airfield should be the same from 3k down.
Constant MG fire on the enemy ac at low alt.
except goons of course...

[MiG Eater]

Zig, before the beginning of this tour I would have agreed with you.  However, on this tour I've noticed that the fleet ack hits are not nearly as deadly and the fire seems to be launched in volleys.  I've heard dozens of "pings" this tour and only taken damage once when flying over CV fleets.  (The damage was a massive hole in my fuel tank but I was able to fly clear and ditch. No 5" tracers were observed.)  I noticed that if I changed my flight path or altitude between the volleys of AI flak bursts, they appeared to detonate further away with less volume.  In the previous Island map tours, I was rarely successful in flying through CV ack without taking critical damage and a number of those were instantaneous deaths where no manned 5" gun tracers were visible.

I watch over and over at single airplanes fly over a fleet only to initiate a kamikaze dive bomb attempt.  They are rarely taken out by ack and have an amazingly high success rate at killing the CV from the attacks that I've seen.  Instantly sinking such a high value asset (a loaded 35,000 ton discplacement carrier with an 876' armored deck carrying 3200 crewmen and a airwing full of planes) with a single fighter seems far more outrageous than a single fighter having little success at avoiding hits from concentrated anti-aircraft fire.

For discussion: A single nme airplane, visible on radar and visible as a high dot before coming into icon range should be targeted mercilessly by all the defensive fire that a fleet can put up.  Taking away the high-alt AI ack would leave an fleet virtually defenseless from a high altitude attack when the turrets are unmanned.   Depending on dedicated gun crews isn't practical since most people want to fly in this sim.  I've found that the manned ack guns cannot effectively slew to defend against such an overhead attack as well.  You have to have both fore and aft guns manned to have any chance of success against these attacks.  To balance the lack of any AI defences when no one is manning the guns, the CV's would have to be made virtually indestructable for them to have any use at all in AH.

I guess I'm saying that flying within the defensive ring of fire around a fleet should be a very hazardous undertaking.  Then again, I painted my aircraft with a big "FRIENDLY" sign on the wings so I look like a friendly airplane to everyone  <G> You can borrow it Zig    

MiG

(Edited for spelling)

[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 04-07-2001).]

[MiG Eater]

 

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:

First of all it fires out very very far, often the puffs appear before one even sees the carrier.

Grun, if you use the Zoom view, you can see the carrier before it fires on you.

MiG

[paintmaw]

carrier AA has always been too good , I don't understand why with soo many complaints its still never been changed . I figured there must be a valid reason . Please don't take this as a personal attack , It wasn't ment to be .
signed, Paranoid poster

no doubt someone will take this personal