Author Topic: Gun control laws do they work ?  (Read 20460 times)

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »
sunfan I believe in our right to bear arms.  however this is food for thought:  a great deal of mass shootings in the us are committed by people that have no criminal history, in other words law abiding citizens who exercised their right to bear arms. which sometimes makes me wonder who really should have the right to bear arms, however I dont see a way to really know for sure who shouldnt be able to bear arms.


semp
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin




« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:22:51 AM by hlbly »

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #196 on: August 25, 2012, 11:12:44 AM »
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

 :rolleyes:

Offline Widewing

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #197 on: August 25, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
The gunman killed one. The police killed the gunman. All 9 wounded were hit by police gunfire. Many police forces do not train with their firearms all that much. This may be part of the problem or none of it in this case. The area where this went down is a very heavy pedestrian traffic area.

I do think there was a lot of shots fired to have hit the turd only 3 times.

This was a huge screw-up...

The number of mistakes made by these two officers was breathtaking. How they approached the gunman was the first. Rushing at him in plain sight, on a very busy street... Stupid, stupid, stupid. The second was that they were approaching a man who had just shot down another guy, and their weapons are holstered! The bad guy pulls out his 1911 auto and points it in the direction of the officers and they still have their pistols holstered. Had the gunman wanted, he could have gotten off several aimed rounds before these cops could clear leather and attempt to return fire. Now in a panic, both officers grab their pistols and fire. 16 rounds in about 3 seconds. 9 rounds miss and 9 bystanders are wounded as a result.

No doubt that these officers had to defend themselves, but they initiated this with:
1) No clue what they were dealing with
2) Really lousy tactics and poor judgment
3) Unprepared for a gunfight
4) Panicked spray and pray shooting

One cop did at least one thing right... He moved laterally to engage the gunman, turned sideways and offered the smallest possible target. Likely more instinct than training. The other officer took cover behind a potted shrub. He was the one likely responsible for most of the bystander wounds (his angle was towards the fleeing people on the sidewalk). However, that is speculation and a forensic investigation will reveal who was responsible for the various civilian injuries.

What does this tell me? NYPD training isn't up to snuff. These guys did everything wrong and by the grace of God, didn't get killed as a result. Going to the range once a year, shooting a box of ammo at paper 7 yards distant to stay qualified isn't training. Shooting skills are perishable. 30 minutes a year is worthless. Two hours of combat shooting practice every month is barely adequate. Tactical training... When to engage, when to just follow, when to move in, the rank and file get little to no tactical training of any value. As an example, I've spent a fair amount of time working with SPEC OPs teams developing hardware for their weapons. These guys would have taken down this guy without collateral victims. Double-tap to the head; fight over.

Sure, we cannot expect the rank and file cop to be trained like a SEAL, or have skill levels remotely close. However, the cops should be trained well enough that they don't make these kind of mistakes and have the good sense to pick a better location to attempt to apprehend an armed killer. Especially when the killer was not an immediate threat to anyone on the street. Mental training is as important as actual range work. These two cops were not mentally prepared for what was about to come down. Holstered firearms tells us that very clearly. When you approach a suspected gunman, you had better have weapons out and sights on the perp.

NYPD, heck, all police departments need to examine what happened today and learn from it.

Here's the video... Those of you who are or have been in law enforcement, and those with military training, will recognize the mistakes.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199
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Offline ink

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2012, 11:24:19 AM »
:rolleyes:

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

sorry but your rollseye made me laugh....obviously you don't want your freedom and would rather be a sheep than a man....let me guess the first sign of trouble you call 911....oh come save me....help me....I need help......

take the responsibility of YOUR life into YOU'RE hands...don't expect someone else to came save you.

but then again I guess this world needs all kinds....so never mind continue being a sheep.



that quote is one of the best there is. :aok

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #199 on: August 25, 2012, 11:27:26 AM »
Getting back to the original question, and looking into the pondering, gun laws do work. But only that far, they never work as a complete insurance against getting killed by a bullet.
Looking at mass murders is one thing. Looking coldly at pure statistics, the USA sticks out as the western country with the highest percentage of capital crime, - murder, rape, armed robbery. The average of murder is actually about the same in the rural parts (alltogether) in the USA, as in London.
The answer IMHO is possibly that the USA is just full of guns. The access is easy, conceilable weapons widely allowed, and even more high powered weapons which have all the potential of hosing down a whole classroom.
Putting some regulations into it will take a long time to work. If I recall it correctly the British tightened their rules some while ago, and offered people to turn in weapons of no use with no questions asked, maybe there was even a bonus in it.
There is perhaps a second answer. It's just the wild old culture of a "gunland"
What if I told you that statistics say that right to carry laws , meaning less gun control lowers all violent crimes ? John Lott More guns less crime .
Here is his blog you can access some of his papers that go into his book .

http://www.johnrlott.com/

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #200 on: August 25, 2012, 11:28:13 AM »
:rolleyes:
Rolling your eyes at Ben Franklin or me ?

Offline Widewing

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #201 on: August 25, 2012, 11:31:50 AM »
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin


Franklin's actual quote was: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

This has been mangled by many over the years... Still a valid statement though, especially today.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #202 on: August 25, 2012, 11:38:45 AM »
Rolling your eyes at Ben Franklin or me ?

I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street,  but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides and that a quote doesn't invalidate any and all forms of "security at the cost of liberty."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:41:20 AM by TonyJoey »

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #203 on: August 25, 2012, 11:43:53 AM »
I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street,  but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides.

Don't worry TJ, Bustr will just call you an ignorant wealthy liberal, and then tell you how before you lived there things were worse. You can't argue with fear... its irrational.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:46:16 AM by Ardy123 »
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Offline mbailey

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #204 on: August 25, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »
This was a huge screw-up...

The number of mistakes made by these two officers was breathtaking. How they approached the gunman was the first. Rushing at him in plain sight, on a very busy street... Stupid, stupid, stupid. The second was that they were approaching a man who had just shot down another guy, and their weapons are holstered! The bad guy pulls out his 1911 auto and points it in the direction of the officers and they still have their pistols holstered. Had the gunman wanted, he could have gotten off several aimed rounds before these cops could clear leather and attempt to return fire. Now in a panic, both officers grab their pistols and fire. 16 rounds in about 3 seconds. 9 rounds miss and 9 bystanders are wounded as a result.

No doubt that these officers had to defend themselves, but they initiated this with:
1) No clue what they were dealing with
2) Really lousy tactics and poor judgment
3) Unprepared for a gunfight
4) Panicked spray and pray shooting

One cop did at least one thing right... He moved laterally to engage the gunman, turned sideways and offered the smallest possible target. Likely more instinct than training. The other officer took cover behind a potted shrub. He was the one likely responsible for most of the bystander wounds (his angle was towards the fleeing people on the sidewalk). However, that is speculation and a forensic investigation will reveal who was responsible for the various civilian injuries.

What does this tell me? NYPD training isn't up to snuff. These guys did everything wrong and by the grace of God, didn't get killed as a result. Going to the range once a year, shooting a box of ammo at paper 7 yards distant to stay qualified isn't training. Shooting skills are perishable. 30 minutes a year is worthless. Two hours of combat shooting practice every month is barely adequate. Tactical training... When to engage, when to just follow, when to move in, the rank and file get little to no tactical training of any value. As an example, I've spent a fair amount of time working with SPEC OPs teams developing hardware for their weapons. These guys would have taken down this guy without collateral victims. Double-tap to the head; fight over.

Sure, we cannot expect the rank and file cop to be trained like a SEAL, or have skill levels remotely close. However, the cops should be trained well enough that they don't make these kind of mistakes and have the good sense to pick a better location to attempt to apprehend an armed killer. Especially when the killer was not an immediate threat to anyone on the street. Mental training is as important as actual range work. These two cops were not mentally prepared for what was about to come down. Holstered firearms tells us that very clearly. When you approach a suspected gunman, you had better have weapons out and sights on the perp.

NYPD, heck, all police departments need to examine what happened today and learn from it.

Here's the video... Those of you who are or have been in law enforcement, and those with military training, will recognize the mistakes.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199

Agreed 100%....my father was a weapons and tactics instructor for the  State Police....God rest his soul, I would love to know what he thought of this incedent. My thoughts are it would have been used to teach his students what not to do.
Mbailey
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #205 on: August 25, 2012, 11:58:44 AM »
Don't worry TJ, Bustr will just call you an ignorant wealthy liberal, and then tell you how before you lived there things were worse. You can't argue with fear... its irrational.

An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.

Offline Vudu15

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #206 on: August 25, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »
As a younger kid I'm only 23 now i had a shotgun rifle and 22 pistol in my room from the age of 12 or so. We my family and i live way out in the middle of no where we have guys just down the road a mile or so who deal drugs and lord knows what else. For me to rely on someone else For the defense of my family in an emergency is silly it would be close to half an hour before any type of help arrived. Even from a young age suspicious looking or acting vehicles or people were watched if they seemed alright or someone e know from down the road you went on with your day if not then you kept an eye out. dos are they were just regular folks enjoying the country but if your always on the look sometimes that's enough to save you.now some folks would call the paranoid but i call it always expecting the unexpected. Gun laws Will never stop the criminal fully. And only in extreme cases like Britain Will it even slow him and i doubt even that. So in these backwoods areas where help might be way too far away i must help my self. I do this by being better armed more proficient and more aware of my surroundings than the people looking for a target. Now i hope i never have to deal with a situation like this. But as my father has always said it better have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


PS sorry for the crappy everything i suck on this phone in the field right now...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:07:48 PM by Vudu15 »
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Offline RngFndr

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #207 on: August 25, 2012, 12:11:50 PM »
An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.

So, the Murder of American Citizens, via Military Means, without trial or jury or even a hearing, is all good Huh???

THIS, is the real threat to the future life and happyness of our progeny..

A greater threat than any dope dealer, or street thug, or crazed gunman...

Offline ink

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2012, 12:17:10 PM »
An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.

see thats the sad part...you are a willing sheep :aok

Offline Chilli

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2012, 01:00:11 PM »
Thanks for the link.  I was amazed at how brief the shooting actually was.  You said 16 rounds in about 3 seconds (seemed even shorter).  I assume they were all fired by the NYPD officers (not sure).

I do believe the officer standing, and closest to the gunman, was the most deliberate and probably got the job done.  I am certainly untrained and only watched the small clip and at full speed with no sound (There is no slow motion when reacting to a life and death situation). 

It was tragic that so many innocent bystanders were harmed, and a life was taken, but with the crazy, CRAZY world events, just in the past few weeks, no one can be too cautious when confronting armed suspects.  In retrospect, the officers who seemed to be racing to the scene could have been more "cautious" even without their guns drawn, it looked as if they only identified the gunman AFTER he pulled his gun (might need to watch again to confirm). 

Prior to that, to the untrained eye, the guy just looked like he was another office worker on break, with one BIG exception.  He was carrying a coat of some kind (to conceal the weapon maybe), while the weather did not appear to warrant such outer wear.

You brought out some clear points and the NYPD will have to answer to them.  You seem to be aware that the reaction to the situation by the officers correlates to their training and experience.  I would like to think that I am going both sides of the aisle when I say this.  Give these men and women the pay they deserve, but tie this pay to incentives for training that help them come home to their families and protect ours professionally.

Remember the guy who was repeatedly shot for displaying his wallet?   :uhoh  Although this was no wallet, I would bet it was just about the same reaction time.  Let me be clear of where I stand on what I saw.  The officer who stood tall, 6 feet away from the gunman, has huge cohonees, and just improved the IQ of the planet a little if he took that nutcase out.

Edited to include:  In response to Widewing's excellent comment on the Empire State shooting and security cam footage.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 01:06:12 PM by Chilli »